Earth's Atmosphere

[mikexmoran]

Saw this article and thought it may be of interest. Put things in perspective - how little atmosphere there really is...and how small our corner of the universe is.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-...440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=newsletter

 

[gmase]

More great info on the atmosphere: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/atmosphere/

Since we're in the politics section here:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...jects-than-tackling-dirty-air-study-pollution

Humans do not seem to concerned about the atmosphere - at least our governments do not seem too bothered:

• Dirty air is the world’s biggest environmental killer, responsible for at least 4m early deaths a year. But just 1% of global development aid is used to tackle this crisis,
• Governments around the world gave 20% more in overseas aid funding to fossil fuel projects in 2019 and 2020 than to programmes to cut the air pollution they cause.

Instead of creating a bunch of new carbon polluting countries, why don't we try to start developing countries out on a greener path? Greener jobs will be more sustainable in the long-run.

 

[tvstrip]

On that note, what do you guys think about Carbon pricing policies? It seemed to be a pretty controversial idea, but most first-world nations seem to have adopted some form of it.

 

[gmase]

Carbon pricing makes sense to me. The issue - like most taxes - is the regressive nature of them. Developing countries will cry foul about having to overpay as a percentage of GDP.

Establishing a better base should be a priority. Start out with a sustainable framework so there is no need to transition later.

 

[John_8581]

More great info on the atmosphere: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/atmosphere/

Since we're in the politics section here:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...jects-than-tackling-dirty-air-study-pollution

Humans do not seem to concerned about the atmosphere - at least our governments do not seem too bothered:

• Dirty air is the world’s biggest environmental killer, responsible for at least 4m early deaths a year. But just 1% of global development aid is used to tackle this crisis,
• Governments around the world gave 20% more in overseas aid funding to fossil fuel projects in 2019 and 2020 than to programmes to cut the air pollution they cause.

Instead of creating a bunch of new carbon polluting countries, why don't we try to start developing countries out on a greener path? Greener jobs will be more sustainable in the long-run.

Dirty Air?

"The factory belches filth into the sky ..."

Almost the whole song ...

 

[tvstrip]

Carbon pricing makes sense to me. The issue - like most taxes - is the regressive nature of them. Developing countries will cry foul about having to overpay as a percentage of GDP.

Establishing a better base should be a priority. Start out with a sustainable framework so there is no need to transition later.

And the developed countries will similarly complain that the same measures are hindering them, like the main argument that trump left Paris.

But there has to be some cost to pollution, otherwise there is literally nothing from stopping countries from doing so. And from the frequency of extreme weather events in the past couple years alone, it should be clear to even deniers that climate change is real and something needs to be done.

I'm trying to find info on how effective carbon pricing/taxes etc are, but it seems like many places have only implemented their policies in the past couple years, and any data from 2020/2021 is basically useless due to covid. Have you seen any studies which you consider conclusive of the effects that it has?

 

[gmase]

Nothing conclusive. Just opinions and viewpoints.

 

[mikexmoran]

And the developed countries will similarly complain that the same measures are hindering them, like the main argument that trump left Paris.

But there has to be some cost to pollution, otherwise there is literally nothing from stopping countries from doing so. And from the frequency of extreme weather events in the past couple years alone, it should be clear to even deniers that climate change is real and something needs to be done.

I'm trying to find info on how effective carbon pricing/taxes etc are, but it seems like many places have only implemented their policies in the past couple years, and any data from 2020/2021 is basically useless due to covid. Have you seen any studies which you consider conclusive of the effects that it has?

https://www.edf.org/climate/how-cap-and-trade-works

like cap & trade?

 

[tvstrip]

https://www.edf.org/climate/how-cap-and-trade-works

like cap & trade?

Yes; there are so many systems out there: C&T, Carbon Tax, Carbon pricing (not the same), etc. I'm looking into them and evaluating which work/are more effective. Different countries have implemented different systems, and given the global range of the members here, I figured it would be a good place to ask

 

[mikexmoran]

Yes; there are so many systems out there: C&T, Carbon Tax, Carbon pricing (not the same), etc. I'm looking into them and evaluating which work/are more effective. Different countries have implemented different systems, and given the global range of the members here, I figured it would be a good place to ask

Definitely interesting. Tough to be altruistic.
Economies are very different too. India and China are in a different place than the US.
Making comparisons to individual European countries, like Germany, to the U.S. in a sense is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not asking you to do homework for me, but very interested in what you learn and your thoughts.

 

[tvstrip]

Definitely interesting. Tough to be altruistic.
Economies are very different too. India and China are in a different place than the US.
Making comparisons to individual European countries, like Germany, to the U.S. in a sense is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not asking you to do homework for me, but very interested in what you learn and your thoughts.

True, the situation is different in every country and there's no one universal solution. But every country can do something, and that's why the Paris accord basically lets countries choose their goals.

Many countries have some mechanism for consumers to recover some of the money they pay for carbon pricing. So let me ask you, as a consumer, a) would you be willing to pay for carbon pricing and b) what types of "compensation" would you want to see (if any)?

 

[D-rock]

It's sad when a thread on Earth's atmosphere has to go in the politics section.

It would be like putting a thread about the composition of the moon in the politics section because some people think it's made of cheese and won't accept reality.

 

[mikexmoran]

It's sad when a thread on Earth's atmosphere has to go in the politics section.

It would be like putting a thread about the composition of the moon in the politics section because some people think it's made of cheese and won't accept reality.

Mea Culpa. I didn’t really think about where I was posting it.
your point is well made, though.

 

[D-rock]

Mea Culpa. I didn’t really think about where I was posting it.
your point is well made, though.

In fairness to you I thought the mods moved the thread to this section as I could have sworn I seen it someplace else.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

Unfortunately we are all so ass deep in politics(at least here in the US) that it seems almost impossible not to even inadvertently let some into everything.

 

[gmase]

More great info on the atmosphere: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/atmosphere/

Since we're in the politics section here:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...jects-than-tackling-dirty-air-study-pollution

Blame it on me. It was posted in the Politics forum so I took it there. It seemed better than heading toward religion.

We needed a climate change thread anyway.

 

[mikexmoran]

Blame it on me. It was posted in the Politics forum so I took it there. It seemed better than heading toward religion.

We needed a climate change thread anyway.

I was really just marveling at the fragileness of it all.
However, I’m on board with heading there!

 

[tvstrip]

It's pretty much impossible to talk about climate change without getting into politics, so this sections seems appropariate.

What I'm finding interesting is that many people are saying they want to save the environment, but that support dwindles significantly when it comes to paying for those measures out of their own pocket. So with carbon taxing, there is a lot of fiscal gymnastics going on to try and make it revenue neutral. Seems like some countries are doing a better job of selling it to the public than others.

 

[gmase]

What I'm finding interesting is that many people are saying they want to save the environment, but that support dwindles significantly when it comes to paying for those measures out of their own pocket.

That statement sums up almost everything.

 

[tvstrip]

The global approach is flawed. The Paris agreement, which supposedly got the world united in this fight has no teeth. It's good that it allows for countries to set their targets, but even then, it's not like they face serious consequences if they don't meet those self-appointed goals. And there's always the option of just peacing out from the deal, like trump did.

While he rightfully gets a lot of flack for that, it's notable that other countries (Canada) did exactly that with the Kyoto protocol, not to mention so many countries didn't even make binding agreements or ratify it (US).

What I'm finding laughable is the goals that were set in Paris. Take a look at your country's goal under the Paris agreement, and google your country's current carbon emissions. I bet that the emission levels at the height of COVID measures when travel/work etc were most restrictive, still aren't even close to what your target is. That's right, even if we kept emissions levels at the point they were when everyone was staying at home, that still isn't anywhere close enough to meet those targets. I'm willing to bet that many (probably the majority) of countries are going to be revising their targets or simply just not meet them as the 2030 deadline comes near.