Do we need to teach cursive writing?

[Ace Bandage]

While this may not go well with you, can you add teachers who are held accountable for their performance to that list? As it stands now, the teachers union's #1 priority is looking out for #1. They've admitted so.

Well, the only way you can increase your pay as a public school teacher in the state of Indiana is by doing well on your evaluations. The old system of tying pay raises to years of experience and degrees is out the window. If you're not evaluated as an effective teacher, you're not getting a raise. It's as simple as that. We have several informal evaluations during the year and one formal evaluation each semester. So if you want to get paid, you better do your job well.

A few years ago they were also tying student performance to our pay raises. Part of my raise was dependent on how well my students achieved on standardized tests.
That's all well and good when kids take the test seriously and want to do well. But why should I be punished when some of my students who don't plan to graduate decide that the test is pointless and guess on every question? That doesn't seem fair to me.

I don't like the teachers union, but I feel like I have to be a member. They help protect me against lawsuits. For example, if some girl files a frivolous sexual harassment claim against me because she failed my class, the union would pay for my defense. And in today's world, I need that kind of protection.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Your kids probably attend an expensive private school. Most of them probably have successful parents. And the bigger correlation there is between socioeconomic status and academic performance. Kids from better backgrounds gets better grades. That's a sad but true fact. While some of their academic performance may be tied to taking Latin, most of it is also tied to the fact that the kids have smaller class sizes, are highly motivated, have involved parents, and have better technology. Those are the advantages that count.

The curriculum you listed above is simply not feasible for public education. I teach at a large inner city school where over 75% of our students are on free and reduced lunch. Fewer than half of my students will attend a four-year college. We have over 2,000 students but parent/teacher conferences only take 2 hours because fewer than 10% of the parents show up. And the ones who do show up are generally the parents of students who are performing well academically. That's another big problem - the parents don't value education so neither do the kids. That's something you don't encounter very often in a private school.

We offer OTP (occupational tech prep) English classes to our students. Basically, it's a dumbed down version of the state standards for students who are not planing to attend college. These classes are always full. I have one section of this class this year and I have 31 students in that class. Most of them struggle with nouns and verbs, let alone participles, gerunds, or infinitives. There's no way they would even begin to comprehend anything to do with Latin. It would be a fiasco.

So while it may help advanced students in their studies, it's not going to do anything for the students who don't even have a basic understanding of their native language.

That's my $0.02.

While I have no disagreement with anything you said here, I would also postulate that regardless of the circumstances you outlined above, I will still say that learning the particulars of grammar within the context of Latin studies (part of a classical, Socratic method), has advantages.

It's not for everyone, and I am a proponent for public education. My kids start there, and will move to a private school later.

And I think well of you because teachers in public schools are fucking heros, and should be paid like doctors are.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Stop using all them fancy words, cockfag!

 

[sean miguel]

Well, the only way you can increase your pay as a public school teacher in the state of Indiana is by doing well on your evaluations. The old system of tying pay raises to years of experience and degrees is out the window. If you're not evaluated as an effective teacher, you're not getting a raise. It's as simple as that. We have several informal evaluations during the year and one formal evaluation each semester. So if you want to get paid, you better do your job well.

A few years ago they were also tying student performance to our pay raises. Part of my raise was dependent on how well my students achieved on standardized tests.
That's all well and good when kids take the test seriously and want to do well. But why should I be punished when some of my students who don't plan to graduate decide that the test is pointless and guess on every question? That doesn't seem fair to me.

I don't like the teachers union, but I feel like I have to be a member. They help protect me against lawsuits. For example, if some girl files a frivolous sexual harassment claim against me because she failed my class, the union would pay for my defense. And in today's world, I need that kind of protection.

Then good on Indiana. I'm a product of public education K-12. My parents didn't have the money to send me to private school. I've had great teachers and those who frankly didn't give a shit and had checked out. My issue with the teachers' unions is that they will cover for those bad apples because education of children is not their #1 priority.

The National Education Association's Bob Chanin during his farewell speech in 2009: “It is not because of creative ideas, it is not because of the merit of our position, it is not because we care about children, it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power and we have power because there are more than 3.2 million people who are willing to pay us hundreds of millions of dollars in dues each year because they believe we are the unions that can most effectively represent them, the unions that can protect their rights and advance their interests as education employees.”

At least he's honest.

 

[Jagger69]

Then please write it more legibly. The only thing I could read in your reply with any certainty was an obscenity and I'm quite sure someone of your gentlemanly stature would not resort to such ill-mannered antics....especially on a forum so dignified as this one.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Then please write it more legibly. The only thing I could read in your reply with any certainty was an obscenity and I'm quite sure someone of your gentlemanly stature would not resort to such ill-mannered antics....especially on a forum so dignified as this one.

:1orglaugh

ZING

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

I'm calling bullshit. He obviously recognized his name. Plus, "suck it" and "respectfully" are clearly articulated. Your response has the presumption of insufficiency all over the place, brah.

 

[Nester6]

I'm calling bullshit. He obviously recognized his name. Plus, "suck it" and "respectfully" are clearly articulated. Your response has the presumption of insufficiency all over the place, brah.

I believe cursive and manuscript should be taught. It's just another tool in a well rounded education!

 

[cree]

Let's be all the same. Let's drop everything that has no apparent use. All good. Then don't complain that life is boring. Next step will be to stop teaching writing tout-court. There are keyboard you know. WHo gives a fuck about writing. Or Reading. Or eating good. Or spending3 mins petting your partner before shoving it in. Or having any kind of verbal conversation, for what it matters: there is Twitter, and emails and FB.

Learning is not always just about utility. Learning gives you choices, you know? There will always be someone good at cursive writing and s/he will have more chances than you have in life. Learning never hurts. You never know when you need what you know. But you often wish you knew something you don't. My 2 cents.

:goodpost:

 

[BigSwede]

Students should at least have the possibility, but most of all they should learn how to spell and put together proper sentences.

 

[georges]

Then please write it more legibly. The only thing I could read in your reply with any certainty was an obscenity and I'm quite sure someone of your gentlemanly stature would not resort to such ill-mannered antics....especially on a forum so dignified as this one.

Don't pretend that you wouldn't read what Ace wrote unless you need glasses. Ill mannered antics, I heard? And banalisation and simplification of the single of art writing is supposed to be an improvement? Highly unlikely. When you had to take quick notes fast, you wrote in print letters , right? No, you wrote in cursive and you know that in meetings and when there is a need of taking notes fast, cursive or spencerian script are the only way to go. Also imagine what one should say about someone who can't even sign his/her name. It says a lot about the supposed higher education of the person who calls herself someone highly educated.For your information, Ace used a fountain pen with medium cursive stub nib according to the style of letters. You will ask me how do I know that,I will tell that I am fountain pen user and collector since the age of 6.

 

[georges]

Students should at least have the possibility, but most of all they should learn how to spell and put together proper sentences.

Let's be all the same. Let's drop everything that has no apparent use. All good. Then don't complain that life is boring. Next step will be to stop teaching writing tout-court. There are keyboard you know. WHo gives a fuck about writing. Or Reading. Or eating good. Or spending3 mins petting your partner before shoving it in. Or having any kind of verbal conversation, for what it matters: there is Twitter, and emails and FB.

Learning is not always just about utility. Learning gives you choices, you know? There will always be someone good at cursive writing and s/he will have more chances than you have in life. Learning never hurts. You never know when you need what you know. But you often wish you knew something you don't. My 2 cents.

Very true on both counts :clap::hatsoff:

 

[Jagger69]

Don't pretend that you wouldn't read what Ace wrote unless you need glasses. Ill mannered antics, I heard? And banalisation and simplification of the single of art writing is supposed to be an improvement? Highly unlikely. When you had to take quick notes fast, you wrote in print letters , right? No, you wrote in cursive and you know that in meetings and when there is a need of taking notes fast, cursive or spencerian script are the only way to go. Also imagine what one should say about someone who can't even sign his/her name. It says a lot about the supposed higher education of the person who calls herself someone highly educated.For your information, Ace used a fountain pen with medium cursive stub nib according to the style of letters. You will ask me how do I know that,I will tell that I am fountain pen user and collector since the age of 6.

Georges.....apparently you, a) don't recognize sarcasm when you see it or, b) don't understand the relationship I have with Johnny. I'm willing to be that both are true.

I don't have anything against someone who wants to write in cursive. The question by the OP was "do we need to teach it?". I said no (I mean, they dropped drivers ed here in Texas so why worry about cursive script?). If you disagree, hot-diggity dog for you.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Fuck me. Georges is a regular Shedlock Jones. Medium nib, indeed.

 

[georges]

Fuck me. Georges is a regular Shedlock Jones. Medium nib, indeed.

thanks for the compliment :hatsoff:

 

[BlkHawk]

When you had to take quick notes fast, you wrote in print letters , right? No, you wrote in cursive and you know that in meetings and when there is a need of taking notes fast, cursive or spencerian script are the only way to go.

Well it used to be short hand for this. I don't know about Europe, but over here that used to be a very common class. My older siblings were required to take it in high school, but after dictation machines became common most places stopped teaching it. I doubt any public school has offered a class for it in at least thirty years; the business world still works, and society marches on.

 

[bobjustbob]

Shorthand may be something that should come back. Think about it. Being able to write as fast as someone can speak. That's a nice skill to have. Plus it's not a bad way to get students to listen to what is being said in school. As you said, this was something that had been taught and learned for decades. Makes students listen. Can't learn stuff if you don't listen.

 

[BlkHawk]

My ability to learn was rather odd in school. If I took notes I failed, if I just sat there and listened I passed. Just how I absorbed information I guess.

 

[HappyHapyJoyJoy]

My opinion?

Do we need to teach cursive? Yes. Does it need to be part of the core curriculum? No, quite simply because it's obsolete.

The core curriculum is supposed to be utilitarian and prepare people for life and further education, and cursive doesn't really do that. I just don't think there's enough tangible gains from knowing it, and the time spent teaching that could be better spent teaching kids something they're more likely to be able to get mileage out of.

Take cursive and Shakespeare, mix it in with some etymology and linguistic anthropology and stick it all in an elective "Classical English" course in high school. Those who want it, or are planning a career or educational path where they can use it can take it, and those who don't can ignore it.

Having cursive as part of the core curriculum feels to me like insisting that everyone in the medical profession learn phrenology and how to properly drill a hole in someone's skull to let out the evil spirits. While I'm all for retaining knowledge and history I don't think we need everyone to have a working knowledge of the useless and outdated.

 

[Rey C.]

I think it's more important for people to be able to use the language of their land correctly and effectively. If a kid writes "your", when he/she means "you're" or "there", when he/she means ""their" or "they're"... I think that's more of a problem than whether or not they can write in cursive style. Even worse (IMO) is when you receive an email from a degreed engineer that's full of nonsensical internet shorthand and misspelled words. If a person is a native English speaker, one shouldn't have to decipher or translate what they've written!

What I think should be taught in ALL schools is Latin. If you have even a basic understanding of Latin, your ability to use and understand English (and other languages) goes up exponentially. Does it piss off any of the other Americans here when you encounter a non-native English speaker who has a better command of English than someone who was born here? :wtf: Isn't that sad?