Chevy Volt could get 230mpg

Wouldn't a model integrating some grid affecting factor analyze two things (in the cases you raise...grid impact and costs), what impact typical usage has on the grid and energy cost? Since these particular vehicles are not designed to pull up at some station and re-charge in a couple of minutes, the likely scenario is they will be impacting the grid while it's usage and rates are at their lowest.

Since there is no shortage with fossil fuels, the lower consumption of them represented by the near future of the these types of vehicles should make it illogical for oil explorers and entrepreneurs to invest the capital and time in new exploration. After all, that was the problem in getting them to invest in new exploration on leases they're already entitled to. The price of oil wasn't high enough to justify the investment in more exploration.

I'm not saying that having non-fossil fuel forms of energy is a bad idea. I think it's pretty essential we develop them, and quickly not just for national security, or economic reasons but for the well being of our entire ecosystem. I just see a lot of problems with trading one form of fossil fuel energy with another that's transformed into electricity so it tricks some of the people out there into thinking they are not using it, when in fact they are.

Even though I know things have to start somewhere I also see some practical problems that might rise up from cars like this. I've already mentioned the stress on the electrical grid and the need for more electricity which will most likely come from non-renewable fossil fuels. But there is also some other practical matters that people don't think about. Like what happens if somebody forgets to plug in their car? Even if you're low on fuel it only takes a few minutes to fill up your tank, but if it takes all night to recharge you car and you forget, there is a local power outage, or something just goes wrong with it, your pretty much screwed. It would make cars even that much more difficult and probably expensive to fix for at least the near future. They would cost more to buy in the first place for a long time, and a lot of people can't even afford new cars now.

We just need to develop a way to generate adequate amounts of energy not using oil or coal. In that respect we are in a bad predicament. Ideally we should have started heavily investing and researching ways to do that decades ago so we would be much further along than now, but that wouldn't have economically "maximized profits" for anybody back then. I guess that's one of the flaws with our system. Even if it's desperately needed and a good idea we won't do it unless we can make or save the most money possible out of it, even to the point of risking our very lives, security, or environment in the process.
 
The "farce" of mpgs with plug-ins ...

The "farce" of mpg with plug-ins is total marketing. Again, people don't realize electricity is not remotely free. Not at all.

The problem in the US continues to be with consumers. Consumers who:
- Do not buy fuel efficient, 4 cylinder ICE designs, always consume more than they need (increasingly each year)
- Continue to have the "not in my back yard" on efficient, renewable resources, actually causing fossil fuel plants to continue to be utilized

US consumers still demand more consumption while blocking the progress in the renovation of the power grid -- total 1-2 clusterfuck As a direct result, the US continues to be heavily reliant on petroleum, with the only, other alternative being the US' vast coal resources.

Ironically, it's in countries like the UK and others that don't have vast coal resources that they are ignoring their populations and pushing forward with nuclear and wind. Because there is no other option at all.

The only option tolerated outside of the western world is hydroelectric, which destroys entire ecosystems. China does this without care, whereas the US will never again.

Geothermal and other solutions that rely on earth thermals continue to prove rarely reliable/stable enough in sources, leaving nuclear and wind as the only, viable options. This is reality. People really don't think this through at all.

Electrical engineers are forced to. Pick up any EE trade mag, not the "popular" ones, but the actual trade mags, journals, etc... (e.g., IEEE Transactions). And for that, they are called "right wingers" or "being in bed with big business" and what not. Yet no one else provides solutions, just ignorant and proliferation of that ignorance (being 1,000x the population size of EEs).

Especially when someone lectures me about how they will generate their hydrogen in their home for their Honda Fuel Cell vehicle and "cut the oil companies off." Ummm, do you remotely understand electrolysis and what it uses and where it comes from?

We're repeating the exact same attitudes and issues from the '70s -- awareness based on ignorance, assumption, marketing and whatnot and nothing gets done. "Not in my back yard."

Not surprisingly, there is a 1:1 relationship between math/science education, engineering graduates and new solutions. Asimov's Foundations is the sad truth of the US today. We are too ignorant and unskilled to move forward, let alone block the few that are trying to progress.
 
It's this exact, ignorant attitude that resulted in the rolling blackouts and some of the worst air pollution an costs per KWH generated in California. The state stopped building new power plants at the start of the '90s, so capacity could not meet demand while the existing plants were dirtier and cost more to utilize to generate the same KWH.

Wow....your ignorance with respect to the "rolling blackouts" is pretty astounding. We STILL don't have any new power plants. The "rolling blackouts" resulted from deregulation of California energy companies in the '90s and they therefore sold electricity to neighboring states at much higher rates causing a shortage of it in California.

Nope. Oil profits are not what everyone assumes them to be. Heck, even at the record prices for barrels of oil, profit margins were significantly down. Total profit was up, but margins were way down.

Again, wow. You're going tell now how "record profits" don't actually mean "record profits"?

I think you're conflating two different things.....and I'm going to explain them here in a minute. But here's a set up question. Demonstrate how profit margins were "way down" as you put it in the case of oil producing corporations.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Actually, its more like 5 years typical. Tooling takes 18-24 months on its own, only a year if you really push it through hard, typically when bringing up additional plants for an existing product that is selling extremely well. One of the fastest ever concept-to-market vehicles was the Dodge Viper, only 3 years, and it showed (all sorts of overlooked details in the design).

The entire process, including concept, is typically in that time frame. But most concepts never see the light of day after the auto shows are complete. And the concept is typically not what is proposed and approved. So to my statement, the Volt proposal was approved in mid 2008, after receiving a budget from the BoD. If I'm not mistaken, pre-production models began rolling off some weeks ago. Recent estimates have the launch taking place in 2010 as a MY2011.



That's how long it takes just to get the technology from 5 years ago into a vehicle. So what we're seeing in 2010 models was the technology in 2005.

Overall lead time is measured by the longest lead time of any of the associated systems or components necessary for production. And a vehicle is made up of many different systems and components. But there are several 2009 models from a particular manufacturer that have a technology (new materials and manufacturing processes) developed in 2007. But yes, with some complex systems, a static development point must be decided upon, whether it's minus five years or three years, etc. But let's use your example of "2005 technology". Is Audi's 2005 fuel system technology the same as GM's 2005 fuel system technology? ;) So that's my point. As there is no giant barrel of technology, which everyone may draw from... you must do as I said originally: develop it or buy it. And if you can't buy it, then the longer you wait to develop it, the further behind you will find yourself. The longer the lead time, the worse the problem becomes.


GM has a massive amount of R&D and technologies. The problem has always been the foresight in the market.

Very true. Which is why I devoted several lines to how GM has been, as opposed to how it's future state is supposed to look. If you remember Motorola in the early to mid 90's; a huge amount of R&D and process improvement techniques were developed and implemented by the company in the cellphone division. And they worked really well too! Motorola made some of the finest analog cellphones on the market. Only trouble was, the market was turning to digital. Poverito Motorola... :o

I've been in automotive for many years. And I'm also a car guy through & through. But I sure as hell can't predict market demands or consumer behavior months, much less years into the future - and neither can anyone else. So the more flexible a manufacturer can be (no matter what industry or process we're discussing), and the more that manufacturer relies on a pull instead of a push philosophy (which is the absolute hardest thing to get across to Americans), the higher the probability for success. And at this stage, that's what GM has to rely on more than the others: increasing the probability for success.

As for my opinion of Chrysler Group (with or without FIAT's "expertise"), just dig the grave now and save time. Fuggetaboutit :tongue:
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
No worries, Will E, if people don't want them, they won't buy them going forward.

But now, if (when?) gasoline returns to $4+/gallon in the U.S. and there is a manufacturer which doesn't have the flexibility in its production lines to produce enough fuel efficient vehicles to meet customer demand (whether they're hybrid, electric or purely internal combustion), that manufacturer will receive the sharp end of the pointy stick.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
No worries, Will E, if people don't want them, they won't buy them going forward.

But now, if (when?) gasoline returns to $4+/gallon in the U.S. and there is a manufacturer which doesn't have the flexibility in its production lines to produce enough fuel efficient vehicles to meet customer demand (whether they're hybrid, electric or purely internal combustion), that manufacturer will receive the sharp end of the pointy stick.

Simple..people stop traveling so much like they did last time and the gas prices will fall again. Because they have the oil, they just want bigger profits.
 
Wow....your ignorance with respect to the "rolling blackouts" is pretty astounding. We STILL don't have any new power plants. The "rolling blackouts" resulted from deregulation of California energy companies in the '90s and they therefore sold electricity to neighboring states at much higher rates causing a shortage of it in California.
No, deregulation only exposed the problem. Yes, it was a catalyst. But you're using that as an excuse to ignore these realities ...

- Demand still increased more than new supply
- The artificially low prices and resulting operating losses prompted deregulation

Which is why even after the fiasco ...

- California had to start importing anyway, and
- After the fixed pricing was removed, California became the most expensive

I know a lot of you socialists think freezing fossil fuel innovation, price fixing and government subsidy are answers to energy needs. But it was the lack of innovation and price fixing that caused the problem here. Again, there's total proof of that after the "controls" were removed! It got damn expensive overnight!

Now imagine if California tried to serve people "plugging in" their planned 10% zero emission vehicles (ZEV). Ha!

Again, wow. You're going tell now how "record profits" don't actually mean "record profits"?
No, they don't mean "record margins." I know you have been extremely mathematically challenged in the past and don't know the difference between revenue and profit.

But just because something increases 25% in revenue doesn't mean profit necessarily increases 25%. People regularly ignored that reality when the cost of petroleum increased in 2008. The profit margins actually dipped, significantly and for obvious reasons.

I think you're conflating two different things.....and I'm going to explain them here in a minute. But here's a set up question. Demonstrate how profit margins were "way down" as you put it in the case of oil producing corporations.
Dude, I'm an engineer with a heck of a lot of financial background. Don't bother. You're just trying to re-explain to fit an agenda, not mathematical reality.

Demonizing the petroleum companies is easy to do. Looking at what actually goes on, much of it driven by consumers and their increasing energy consumption, instead of just blaming corporations is part of the problem.

As an electrical engineer, I've honestly given up.
 
Because they have the oil, they just want bigger profits.
Actually, they don't "have the oil." But that's besides the point (although a very valuable side lesson in securing natural resources).

As I have repeatedly pointed out, profit margins decreased when oil revenues increased in 2008. Yes, the overall, total profit increased. But the operating costs increased faster than the profits. The result was that some profit margins were cut in almost half at several firms.

Do people actually read financial statements? Or they just read articles?

E.g., when you sell 100K products one quarter, make $1M and the resulting profit is $100K, basically a buck a profit, a 90% operating margin. Now the next quarter the revenue of the product jumps to $2M, a full 100% increase, but that's because operating and product costs in materials and other things actually jumped more. So the resulting profit was only 50% more, to $150K, not $200K. So the profit margin is only 7.5%, no longer 10%.

Note, the preceding is a mega, mega-oversimplication and not remotely GAAP, but it illustrates similar calculations in a simplified form.

Yes, profit increased, but not nearly as fast as revenue. The operating and other costs outpaced any increase in profit. Which means the company decided to "eat" profit to keep end-user costs down. Otherwise they could have "raised the price" to keep it proportional with costs and the original profit margin. Yes, the oil companies actually "ate" some costs to keep the price from increasing further and proportional.

What do some of you people actually learn in school these days? Oh, that's right, who to blame! ;)
 
Here's my problem ...

But now, if (when?) gasoline returns to $4+/gallon in the U.S. and there is a manufacturer which doesn't have the flexibility in its production lines to produce enough fuel efficient vehicles to meet customer demand (whether they're hybrid, electric or purely internal combustion), that manufacturer will receive the sharp end of the pointy stick.
Here's my problem ...

Why don't consumers fucking want fuel efficient cars in the first place? The technology doesn't change, just the demand. People find themselves more "willing to accept" things in various situations. Which is why, as I've said over and over, both politicians and products are just a reflection of their voters and consumers.

It doesn't matter how many screaming, traditional electrical engineers there are in the US that are asking people to "wake the fuck up," we're idiots, and "friends of big business" and otherwise to blame for everything voters and consumers cause.

These cars do not get 230mpg. That's the media talking. The energy source that is consumed is just moved, and not very efficiently given how we generate power these days. But don't mind me, people don't like people like me that remind them of such. So they just ignore me.
 
No, deregulation only exposed the problem. Yes, it was a catalyst. But you're using that as an excuse to ignore these realities ...

- Demand still increased more than new supply
- The artificially low prices and resulting operating losses prompted deregulation

Which is why even after the fiasco ...

- California had to start importing anyway, and
- After the fixed pricing was removed, California became the most expensive

I know a lot of you socialists think freezing fossil fuel innovation, price fixing and government subsidy are answers to energy needs. But it was the lack of innovation and price fixing that caused the problem here. Again, there's total proof of that after the "controls" were removed! It got damn expensive overnight!

Now imagine if California tried to serve people "plugging in" their planned 10% zero emission vehicles (ZEV). Ha!

No, they don't mean "record margins." I know you have been extremely mathematically challenged in the past and don't know the difference between revenue and profit.

But just because something increases 25% in revenue doesn't mean profit necessarily increases 25%. People regularly ignored that reality when the cost of petroleum increased in 2008. The profit margins actually dipped, significantly and for obvious reasons.

Dude, I'm an engineer with a heck of a lot of financial background. Don't bother. You're just trying to re-explain to fit an agenda, not mathematical reality.

Demonizing the petroleum companies is easy to do. Looking at what actually goes on, much of it driven by consumers and their increasing energy consumption, instead of just blaming corporations is part of the problem.

As an electrical engineer, I've honestly given up.

Record revenue is different from record profit. For the business accounting challenged like yourself. Profit is what you have after expenses are subtracted from revenues. The oil producing corporations realized record profits...not merely record revenues.

You are pretty confused if not stupid...(no disrespect). If California electricity producers didn't oversell their product...(sell more than they could produce) there would have been no "rolling blackouts". California electric companies produced more than enough electricity to supply customers in California. It's only when they began to take advantage of selling electricity to neighboring states because they could charge higher rates that they ran and
California ran into trouble. Then you add to that the criminal business practices of Enron and Reliant Energy...THAT'S what caused the energy crisis in California. Sorry if that doesn't fit with your agenda but that's the reality.

Hmmm, can I conclude right now one of two things...you are either clueless or so fixated on an agenda that you will assert any statement irrespective of logic or fact?

Like I said, you are apparently conflating two, different things....

Petroleum producers have two, different business sectors; the petroleum producing side and the gasoline retail side. Of course the gasoline retailers profit margins likely shrank as a result of the explosion in crude pricing because they must pay accordingly for refined product. However, the oil producing sector has no increased infrastructure costs when oil prices increase.

It's like a lemonade stand...if for some reason the price of lemonade goes up dramatically for speculative reasons, the costs to the producers of lemonade won't necessarily go up. The cost and resources it takes to produce a cup of lemonade have not changed because the process is still unchanged but market forces have increased the price for a cup of lemonade. The result is increased profits for the producers of lemonade.

That is largely what was the case with oil producing companies....the price for their product went up dramatically while the effort necessary to produce the product was unchanged.

However, the gas station component of their business actually saw a reduction in their profit margins because they pay for refined product in the commodity marketplace which is never reflective of the pricing they ultimately sell their product for.

With respect to California....there are STILL no new power plants...why no "rolling blackouts" if your assertion is true???????
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Re: Here's my problem ...

Here's my problem ...

Why don't consumers fucking want fuel efficient cars in the first place?

It's clear that there was a mean shift in the types of vehicles being bought when gas prices spiked dramatically last year. Within the population "consumers", there are many, many subgroups. And not everyone in every subgroup is in a position to drive a Ford Focus or a Toyota Prius. A contractor or a farmer, for instance, would find it difficult to operate with a small vehicle. Although some businesses are moving to alternative fueled ERV's - we'll just have to see how that works out longer term. Why do (some) 5'1" soccer moms feel that they "need" to drive 5,000 pound SUV's with large displacement V8's and 4WD (which never see unpaved surfaces), that get 14 mpg? :dunno: That's a question for a sociologist. But there was a consumer mean shift last year. And by reading the sales figures from the last several months, you'll see that the types of autos which actually gained in year over year sales included mostly smaller vehicles.


The technology doesn't change, just the demand. People find themselves more "willing to accept" things in various situations. Which is why, as I've said over and over, both politicians and products are just a reflection of their voters and consumers.

This is the basis for using pull manufacturing and planning, rather than push manufacturing and planning. Because lead times are typically quite long in automotive, it's not possible to turn the battleship on a dime. So one should never produce something thinking that they know what's best for the market - unless they just like to gamble. Fuel efficiency is becoming more of a selling point. But as I've said, having the flexibility to meet fluid customer demand (whatever it is) is a necessary component in making these companies successful.



It doesn't matter how many screaming, traditional electrical engineers there are in the US that are asking people to "wake the fuck up," we're idiots, and "friends of big business" and otherwise to blame for everything voters and consumers cause.

Whether it's electrical engineers or MBA's, no it doesn't matter. Why would a consumer listen to me just because of my degree? A degree does not mean that one is related to Zeus, nor that he knows Apollo. People most often base their decisions on what they feel is best for them, not what others feel is best for them. I generally don't believe in government backed social engineering schemes. But if gasoline was taxed in the U.S. at the same rate that it is in Europe, at the mean, you would quite likely see a change in consumer behavior regarding automobile purchases.


These cars do not get 230mpg. That's the media talking. The energy source that is consumed is just moved, and not very efficiently given how we generate power these days. But don't mind me, people don't like people like me that remind them of such. So they just ignore me.

Actually that's GM talking. The measurement system is apparently not as clear as it should be - which is the EPA's fault. The EPA hasn't yet given its blessing to this claim, as far as I know. But again, GM is already getting more positive press from this vehicle than two dozen NASCAR wins in a season.

Whether they'll be successful or not, I don't know. But again, part of the Volt's mission is to bookend the Corvette (and the other performance cars) in being representative of the image for the "new GM".
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
its a concept car, and it just really is not affordable.

No, it is (or will be) a production car. The preproduction models are already underway.

As to whether or not it will be "affordable", I guess we will see once it goes on sale.
 
I'm not saying that having non-fossil fuel forms of energy is a bad idea. I think it's pretty essential we develop them, and quickly not just for national security, or economic reasons but for the well being of our entire ecosystem. I just see a lot of problems with trading one form of fossil fuel energy with another that's transformed into electricity so it tricks some of the people out there into thinking they are not using it, when in fact they are.

Even though I know things have to start somewhere I also see some practical problems that might rise up from cars like this. I've already mentioned the stress on the electrical grid and the need for more electricity which will most likely come from non-renewable fossil fuels. But there is also some other practical matters that people don't think about. Like what happens if somebody forgets to plug in their car? Even if you're low on fuel it only takes a few minutes to fill up your tank, but if it takes all night to recharge you car and you forget, there is a local power outage, or something just goes wrong with it, your pretty much screwed. It would make cars even that much more difficult and probably expensive to fix for at least the near future. They would cost more to buy in the first place for a long time, and a lot of people can't even afford new cars now.

We just need to develop a way to generate adequate amounts of energy not using oil or coal. In that respect we are in a bad predicament. Ideally we should have started heavily investing and researching ways to do that decades ago so we would be much further along than now, but that wouldn't have economically "maximized profits" for anybody back then. I guess that's one of the flaws with our system. Even if it's desperately needed and a good idea we won't do it unless we can make or save the most money possible out of it, even to the point of risking our very lives, security, or environment in the process.

Not many reasonable thinkers believe there is zero trade-off with these vehicles but relying on renewable forms of energy is the way forward.

The efficiency in using fossil fuels to create renewable energy is just flat out by any standard much higher than using fossil fuels as a direct means for energy.

As far as what if circumstances, people run out of gasoline all the time and products and resources were developed to fill that gap. I have no reason to think otherwise that resources will be created to solve for contingencies with hybrid vehicles.

It's not like we don't already use products that need to be plugged in. I mean, the electricity could go out for a long enough time to spoil everything I refrigerate. Is that a case against buying a refrigerator over an icebox?
 
It really is not that much because of the $7500 credit and how much money you would save on gas.

Well that wouldn't be the case IMO. You could go out and save $20K+ buying one of these coffin on wheels as opposed to a hybrid thereby saving enormously over what would be saved on fuel in price.

Kia has some coffin they're selling for under $7K..I'm sure what you'll be saving on the car note will be well more than you'd save in gasoline over the life of the vehicle.

The price needs to come down on these fuckers or they'll just be another nice, shinny product that sat on the shelves.
 
Re: Here's my problem ...

Whether it's electrical engineers or MBA's, no it doesn't matter.
When it comes to consumers telling electrical engineers what is "efficient" and not for power generation is what I was talking about. I don't know how many times I've been called a "right winger" just for explaining power generation and consumption. That was my point.

Why would a consumer listen to me just because of my degree?
I'm not asking a consumer to listen to my advice. I'm only asking a consumer to listen to the physics they are getting dead wrong. Whether it's the moon landing or the twin towers or electric vehicles and the power grid, you can't change physics to fit a political agenda.

It's one thing to have conspiracy theories rooted in politics. I won't argue with those. But it's another to have conspiracy theories rooted in incorrect physics and engineering. That's where I have a major issue. But the ratio is 1 versus thousands, and most other CEs, MEs and EEs I know just "give up" any more.

Virtually all I knwo agree were fucked because of the ignorant masses.

But if gasoline was taxed in the U.S. at the same rate that it is in Europe, at the mean, you would quite likely see a change in consumer behavior regarding automobile purchases.
Something Ross Perot tried to establish in '92. ;)

Whether they'll be successful or not, I don't know. But again, part of the Volt's mission is to bookend the Corvette (and the other performance cars) in being representative of the image for the "new GM".
Actually, it's not uncommon to get 30mpg in a Corvette.
 
Record revenue is different from record profit. For the business accounting challenged like yourself. Profit is what you have after expenses are subtracted from revenues. The oil producing corporations realized record profits...not merely record revenues.
They recorded both! And the increase in record revenue was more then the increase in record profits. Again, they ate more in margin. They could have easily milked "a few more bucks" to maintain the same profit margins.

This is elementary, microeconomics 101 here. If people would stop and actually read financial statements and notice trends -- from the OMB to the oil companies -- they'd see these things coming.

You are pretty confused if not stupid...(no disrespect)
Then I just another stupid engineer. I hear it regularly from people on everything from the moon shot to power generation to even microeconomics.

If California electricity producers didn't oversell their product...(sell more than they could produce) there would have been no "rolling blackouts". California electric companies produced more than enough electricity to supply customers in California. It's only when they began to take advantage of selling electricity to neighboring states because they could charge higher rates that they ran and California ran into trouble.
California did not increase enough production to meet increased demand. The '90s were a boon for energy consumption across the US.

What people don't like to talk about with California is how the fixed pricing led to the selling to neighboring states. Once Californians had to pay "fair market value" for the actual cost of generation, everything changed.

People blamed the governor and others for what was a systematic failure. And they realized it when they started getting their "real bills."

Then you add to that the criminal business practices of Enron and Reliant Energy...
I don't deny it was criminal. But sometimes corporations that are losing money tend to go that direction when the state doesn't work with them.

Also, I want to remind people when these things happened. I know a lot of people like to blame one party, but a lot of these things happened at the hands of both (and well before a common scapegoat President, despite what people tell themselves).

THAT'S what caused the energy crisis in California. Sorry if that doesn't fit with your agenda but that's the reality.
And yet, there were still the capacity and pricing issues! That's my continued point. Californians were unwilling to pay for electricity, unwilling to pay and build newer, cleaner production, and still aren't.

And they can't even handle the power generation required for plug-in vehicles today.

Hmmm, can I conclude right now one of two things...you are either clueless or so fixated on an agenda that you will assert any statement irrespective of logic or fact?
I would argue you will use an extremely simplistic argument to assert a very broad fact. Every time we dive into the details, you fixate and focus on one thing, and try your damnest to argue that one thing as if it's the whole argument.

That's always the problem.

It's a major problem with the consumer in general as well. Blame instead of recognize the systematic issues. GM is stupid. Engineers are stupid. Corporations are always evil. Government knows best. Fixed prices and social programs know better than microeconomic (let alone the resulting macroeconomic) realities.

Like I said, you are apparently conflating two, different things....
Petroleum producers have two, different business sectors; the petroleum producing side and the gasoline retail side. Of course the gasoline retailers profit margins likely shrank as a result of the explosion in crude pricing because they must pay accordingly for refined product.
Not true! The operational pricing is fixed, so if anything, if they raised their prices, they should have made proportionally more profit margins than the rate of increased revenue. But because they didn't try to gouge consumers, they actually had less profit margin, because they did not correspondingly increase prices with increased resource costs.

And yet people think they were taking advantage of the situation?

However, the oil producing sector has no increased infrastructure costs when oil prices increase.
It's like a lemonade stand...if for some reason the price of lemonade goes up dramatically for speculative reasons, the costs to the producers of lemonade won't necessarily go up. The cost and resources it takes to produce a cup of lemonade have not changed because the process is still unchanged but market forces have increased the price for a cup of lemonade. The result is increased profits for the producers of lemonade.
But only if they increase the end product cost proportionally. They actually did not.

That is largely what was the case with oil producing companies....the price for their product went up dramatically while the effort necessary to produce the product was unchanged.
Correct. But they didn't do a 1:1 price increase. Their profit margins didn't increase percentage-wise with increased resource costs, even though they could have justified it. Instead, they saw let margins actually decrease. They were already making an increased, total profit as a result of resource increases, but they didn't milk it.

That has been my absolute and continued point. They didn't milk it.

However, the gas station component of their business actually saw a reduction in their profit margins because they pay for refined product in the commodity marketplace which is never reflective of the pricing they ultimately sell their product for.
I'm talking the petroleum companies, not the gas stations. I wasn't even hitting on the gas stations and the distribution providers, etc...

With respect to California....there are STILL no new power plants...why no "rolling blackouts" if your assertion is true???????
Several reasons.

One, consumers are now paying the fair market value for power, not the low-cost. That was one of the reasons for selling to other states, because most providers were operating at a loss. Again, because California still operates in the '50-'70s technology wise, it's one of the most expensive places to generate power (along with the environmental embarrassment).

Two, capacity has increased while usage has dropped. The recession has hit operations hard, and has for the second half of this decade. Don't you read the trade journals? They are lucky they did, because the rolling blackouts were still on-going until this happened.

Again, cost is still horrendous and environmental impact is still one of the worst among states, largely because they just increase capacity at existing plants as much as they can (regardless of efficiency). That's a direct result of being a half-century behind everyone else.
 
Sounds cool. I only have 1 concern: that the car will be so overpriced that producing it wastes just as much resources, or more, than not having the car (in other words: it won't be cost-effective), and also that only the rich elite will be able to purchase it, thus only slightly reducing the overall pollution.
 
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