British Sailors in Iranian hands ...

Re: Um, no, you have so much factually incorrect here, it's not even funny ...

But I would expect you defending the US because you always do.
Bull. I've lambasted my own country, with accurate information, in a regular basis. Yes, because so much gets dumped on the US, I have to point out the hypocrisy of many people (and their own nations) here in comparison. But I have not deflected the realities of my own nation.

We're just not alone in many cases, and definitely not the "worst" in many others.

Through rose coloured glasses is a term that comes to mind. As for me I know my country has many faults and problems as everyones does. But you always seem to forget these when someone posts against your country.
Huh? Can you go re-read my posts? Just because it's more popular to bash the US doesn't mean our history is the most tainted, even more recent years. ;)

Everyone talks about the "atrocities" committed by the US in Vietnam, WWII, etc... My God, are people that blind today from the reality of history?
 
Re: That's why ...

That's why W. pushed (along with many people, myself included) to develop a new age of tactical nuke designs.

The idea is to take out an installation, without killing the innocent, completely eliminating the airburst effect, and localizing any isotopes to just a few hundred yards.
It's just my humble opinion - but there is a very fine line (and soooo fuzzy at that) between a "strategic" nuke and a "tactical" nuke.

Generals and the lace panty folks up in the District of Criminals love to talk about "tactical nukes".

But a grunt like me knows that the use of nukes opens the doors to all sorts of awful possibilities.... the likes of which no one bothers to comprehend, but the consequences of which will be left up to grunts like me (again) to bear the brunt of.

I mean, Napalm is bad enough.


The only good nuke - is a deterrent nuke.
IMHO, using nukes on a tac level is dangerous fantasy.


cheers,

PS: I stopped bothering with the US bashing. It truly is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
 
You missed my point ...

The only good nuke - is a deterrent nuke.
IMHO, using nukes on a tac level is dangerous fantasy.
You missed my point.
A tactical nuke can also be a deterrent. ;)

In other words, if Iran knew we had tactical nukes capable of taking out their underground bunkers with their centrifuges, they'd take that into consideration.
But because our nuclear arsenal is only airburst, and would cause mass, atmospheric fallout, they know we won't -- and can't -- use them.

As I said, nukes are about deterrent, as you did.
And that includes tactical nukes.

Otherwise Pershing II was a total waste -- when we all know it was not. ;)
 

McRocket

Banned
Re: That's why ...

It's just my humble opinion - but there is a very fine line (and soooo fuzzy at that) between a "strategic" nuke and a "tactical" nuke.

Generals and the lace panty folks up in the District of Criminals love to talk about "tactical nukes".

But a grunt like me knows that the use of nukes opens the doors to all sorts of awful possibilities.... the likes of which no one bothers to comprehend, but the consequences of which will be left up to grunts like me (again) to bear the brunt of.

I mean, Napalm is bad enough.


The only good nuke - is a deterrent nuke.
IMHO, using nukes on a tac level is dangerous fantasy.

I agree with you.
 
Re: That's why ...

It's just my humble opinion - but there is a very fine line (and soooo fuzzy at that) between a "strategic" nuke and a "tactical" nuke.

Generals and the lace panty folks up in the District of Criminals love to talk about "tactical nukes".

But a grunt like me knows that the use of nukes opens the doors to all sorts of awful possibilities.... the likes of which no one bothers to comprehend, but the consequences of which will be left up to grunts like me (again) to bear the brunt of.

I mean, Napalm is bad enough.


The only good nuke - is a deterrent nuke.
IMHO, using nukes on a tac level is dangerous fantasy.


cheers,

Good post - i reckon, i guess because of your Actual military experiences, you are one of the folks on here that realises that it is never going to be as simple as the US, or any other very powerful nuclear country (eg China), dropping some "targeted" nukes that will solve any problem that's out there - and without unjustifiable collateral damage and subsequently starting off a regional or global war

the way some members talk so casually about deploying nuclear weapons you would think these "weapons of mass destruction" could be the answer to all the west's problems - and without any negative fallout
:2 cents:
 
Obviously some people can't read here, so let me point it out (again) ...

Good post - i reckon, i guess because of your Actual military experiences, you are one of the folks on here that realises that it is never going to be as simple as the US, or any other very powerful nuclear country (eg China), dropping some "targeted" nukes that will solve any problem that's out there - and without unjustifiable collateral damage and subsequently starting off a regional or global war
the way some members talk so casually about deploying nuclear weapons you would think these "weapons of mass destruction" could be the answer to all the west's problems - and without any negative fallout
:2 cents:
I made this point:
http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?p=1322088

Which Roughneck responded to here:
http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?p=1329206

And then I pointed out the obvious point in my post he missed:
http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?p=1329227

If you re-read my original post -- including the sections Roughneck did not quote -- you see that I was making a continued point on deterrence!

If you have nuclear capability as a deterrent, you must have the full range of nuclear deterrent. If you do not have the capability, then there is no way whatsoever to project anything that deters anyone!

Right now Iran doesn't fear anything. They know we can't take out their facilities conventionally, and even if they are unsure we could take it out with a traditional, massive airburst-type thermonuclear weapon, they know we would not and could not use such a weapon cause of the massive fall out, no matter how remote the target. We would be completely chastized to the ultimate level -- especially if the weapon didn't take out the underground installation. That's something, as an American defense engineer, I cannot see happen to my commander-in-chief!

Now if we had the real capability of a burrowing, tactical nuclear weapon designed to destroy underground installations with minimal airburst, then, just then, it would provide a much better deterrent than our limited, "kill a lot of people" airburst-type thermonuclear weapons do. It's not about if we'd ever use them, but the fact that we would have the capability -- which is how the US projects 99.9% of its military power! Until then, Iran has nothing to fear.

Just like the Russians didn't fear any NATO response, until Pershing II was deployed. Yeah, the Germans -- and even many Americans -- bitched about the deployment of Pershing II as well. And it did its job, it got massive reductions of nuclear weapons from Europe because it -- a small, tactical nuke designed to take out military installations pre-emptively -- did the deterrent job it needed to.

Fuck you'all very much for not seeing my point. Not Roughneck, because he posted before I re-clarified (and I hope he saw my point after I yet clarified further), but definitely McRocket and blakey -- because you guys posted well after I clarified this point. I'm tired of people not reading what I say and disagreeing with nothing I said.

I mean, geez, you'd figure that an engineer who actually worked in missile defense for over 3 years, who's paid job function at that time was to identify and tell the government what threats we need deterrent with, might actually have a small, fucking clue when it comes to this type of discussion. Especially the real concept of not "hey, what shit can we blow up!" but "what can we give the President to make rogue states think twice?"

No, that's right, we engineers are only interested in killing people, destroy the environment, let alone invented the nuclear bomb in the first place -- just like Linda said in T2, right? Why the fuck do I even bother?
 
Re: You missed my point ...

You missed my point.
A tactical nuke can also be a deterrent. ;)

In other words, if Iran knew we had tactical nukes capable of taking out their underground bunkers with their centrifuges, they'd take that into consideration.
But because our nuclear arsenal is only airburst, and would cause mass, atmospheric fallout, they know we won't -- and can't -- use them.

As I said, nukes are about deterrent, as you did.
And that includes tactical nukes.

Otherwise Pershing II was a total waste -- when we all know it was not. ;)

Ahh, I see what you mean.

"If nothing else, it shows enemies that we have the capability".

Prof. I see (and agree with) the validity of your argument - but I'm still queasy about it.


cheers,
 
Re: You missed my point ...

Ahh, I see what you mean.
"If nothing else, it shows enemies that we have the capability".
Prof. I see (and agree with) the validity of your argument - but I'm still queasy about it.
cheers,
There's nothing pleasing about it. The fact that the capability exists means there is not only a chance we could use it, but our enemies could obtain the same capability at some point and use it against us.

But our enemies would more likely be interested in the airburst thermonuclear weapon, and not a tactical nuke, and definitely not a capability-limited tactical nuke that is designed to minimize collateral damage. Just like the Russians had no interest in Pershing II, other than getting it out of Europe, Iran has no use for a burrowing, tactical nuke, except for ensuring there is no reason we'd ever consider using it against them either. ;)

We can look away and close our eyes and assume everything will be fine. Or we can have people who face the reality and give our commander-in-chief the options he needs -- not for war -- but so he can secure peace. Yes, I know, that's placing a lot of trust in our commander-in-chief (and I'm not just talking W.), but despite all the rhetoric, they do often make the "big decisions count" in our darkest hours.

That isn't just my viewpoint. It wasn't even just my job either. It was what I fully expect the American people -- the people who paid my paycheck for almost half my career (in missile defense and NASA programs) -- expected me to face, and consider in their best interests.
 
Re: Obviously some people can't read here, so let me point it out (again) ...

If you have nuclear capability as a deterrent, you must have the full range of nuclear deterrent. If you do not have the capability, then there is no way whatsoever to project anything that deters anyone!


Now if we had the real capability of a burrowing, tactical nuclear weapon designed to destroy underground installations with minimal airburst, then, just then, it would provide a much better deterrent than our limited, "kill a lot of people" airburst-type thermonuclear weapons do. It's not about if we'd ever use them, but the fact that we would have the capability -- which is how the US projects 99.9% of its military power! Until then, Iran has nothing to fear.

Fuck you'all very much for not seeing my point.

Well, i feel, having re-read the relevant posts, if i have missed your point you may also have missed mine

it is never going to be as simple as the US, or any other very powerful nuclear country (eg China), dropping some "targeted" nukes that will solve any problem that's out there - and without unjustifiable collateral damage and subsequently starting off a regional or global war


i don't deny that it is possible to design a "bunker-busting" weapon capable of destroying an underground facility

my contention would be that the deployment of such a weapon against Iran, either by the US, by a coalition of the willing or by Israel would be likely to trigger, at the least, a serious regional conflict - regardless of the mission's success in terminating Iran's rogue weapons program

the fact that the attack was successfully carried out using a burrowing, tactical nuclear weapon designed to destroy underground installations with minimal airburst would mean, ipso facto , that the majority of Iran's military forces, in terms of both men and equipment, would remain intact and available for, to select an example at random, launching an attack on Israel

then, taking into consideration the twin factors of the dislike of Israel common to large parts of the Islamic world and the concept of the Ummah , it is possible to imagine an apocalyptic scenario where such a situation develops into a new, global conflict

with Iraq in flames and Afghanistan not much better would it be adviseable to further destabilise the middle east by intervening in Iran

unfortunately Iran appears intent on developing its nuclear capabilities - which it says is for peaceful, civilian reasons, although i don't give much credence to that, and claims to be one of its "inalienable rights"

but i reckon they are emboldened to continue by relatively recent nuclear proliferation to India, Pakistan & Israel and what they perceive as hypocrisy on the part of the West in continuing open and friendly relations with these countries

- not a happy situation, but this is just the way i see it, others apparently disagree
 
Re: Obviously some people can't read here, so let me point it out (again) ...

my contention would be that the deployment ... cut
And I agreed that actual deployment would be the wrong move, as with any nuclear weapon! We agree, so don't demonize what I said into what I did not say to fit your continued, argumentative political agenda on this matter. Even Roughneck agreed, and even though there is always a "bad feeling" we all have, it's still the reality of deterrent.

but i reckon they are emboldened to continue by relatively recent nuclear proliferation to India, Pakistan & Israel and what they perceive as hypocrisy on the part of the West in continuing open and friendly relations with these countries
And I too have pointed this out, repeatedly, along with the fact that Iran has never invaded anyone, and has been the continued victim of external influence and control in even very recent history.

Of course, Iran's genocidal statements and active support of terrorist organizations is why most people have a problem with them. If their government had a different stance, and were more trusted by the world, then it wouldn't be as much of a grave issue. The ultimate irony here is that only Iran can solve the problem of Iran, even considering all of the other factors. And until it does, the "hypocritical" argument might be valid, but it doesn't solve the reality of what Iran says it will do if it gets a bomb.

That's different than what the US, Russia, UK, France, Israel, India, Pakistan, etc... do today with the bomb. Hell, even North Korea is only interested in blackmail, not actual deployment.
 
Re: Obviously some people can't read here, so let me point it out (again) ...

We agree, so don't demonize what I said into what I did not say to fit your continued, argumentative political agenda on this matter.

i don't have a continued, argumentative political agenda on this, or on any other, matter

i just see the world through a different prism of experiences, culture, ideas and opinions to you :)
 
Blind, political alignments?

i don't have a continued, argumentative political agenda on this, or on any other, matter
i just see the world through a different prism of experiences, culture, ideas and opinions to you :)
Umm, what part of "we agree" don't you understand?

Frankly, I've noted many times when you've disagreed with people, while they've stated they very much agree with you. That's what I meant by "continued, argumentative political agenda."

I don't know why people feel the need to disagree with me, when I have the same viewpoint on something, other than out of blind, political alignment. I've gotten so many PM's about being a "right winger" on this board (and a few, rare "left winger" comments), and the opposite on some other boards. And all boards seem to have people who agree, "I'm wishy-washy." "Wishy washy" because my viewpoints seem to agree with the right at times, but the left at other times? Many, that just makes me laugh.

This "versus" stuff needs to end. Take what I say at face-value, and don't feel compelled to disagree with me because you think my views don't fit to your left, right or whatever political alignment. Think for yourself, not what you feel must be "wrong" because ProfV is a Republican, Democrat, American, former defense/NASA engineer, etc... and you don't agree with those folk.

That's what I love about Roughneck and many others, including Lady Love (although I feel sometimes she's a bit too cliche/mainstream "popularist" in her post, which I don't feel she actually is inside, so she shouldn't post that way to cater to others IMHO, and probably why I pick on her too much). I've noticed McRocket has returned, and I know I'm going to get railed regularly merely because he thinks I'm a biased (insert the appropriate label for the discussion he wants to use for me) whatever.

People say people should respect others. Let's start by recognizing where we agree, not disagree, when we actually do. This nuclear discussion was a perfect example. I pointed out deterrent, and why if fails for Iran, and what me should do about it. Nukes are scary. Nukes are bad. But nukes, sadly enough, are real, and people will obtain them if they can. 99.9% of the people in the world don't want them, myself included, but many people realize if we don't have them, others will. And there is a deterrent factor that the people who don't use them (and I'm sorry, get off the WWII boat unless you want to bring up all the factors of "genocide" in that war that happened outside the US, even by the Japanese, to a much worse level), from those who have repeatedly claimed they will use them!

Let's not stoop to blind, political alignment based on assumptions about people, instead of what they actually say. I know the concept of an American Libertarian, one in touch with the history of American Republicanism, seems heavily foreign, "too conservative, while making sense and not being traditionally/politically conservative" (as the latter is easy to demonize as simple minded), but not fitting the more traditionally liberal aspects which clearly mean America, and its citizens (especially those who you think voted for W., even if we did not), is "just wrong about everything."

Don't be sheep. We Americans certainly aren't. I think there are enough Americans on this board that should suggest exactly that. On the other hand, the same-old, tired arguments make me wonder about select people at times. But at not time have I (let alone the overwhelming majority of Americans here, in stark comparison to non-Americans) *EVER* stereotyped and labeled peopled *COLLECTIVELY* like I *CONTINUALLY* see you make of us Americans!

Note that. People, for heaven's sake, note that! ;)
 
i hesitate to post lest this be seen as further evidence of my adversarial nature

but i just like to debate & discuss some of the issues that become thread topics
i don't agree with all the posts i read and i understand people disagree with my posts sometimes
but i take no offence at this and intend no offence to those i disagree with
we're all entitled to our opinion after all :)
 
we're all entitled to our opinion after all :)
But let those alleged "opinions" be what someone actually said, and not what you want to assume they said. ;)
I feel it more than most -- as does Roughneck and others too -- because so many people want to label everyone as left or right, and whatever "baggage" that entails.

And I'm sick'n tired of people expecting me to apologize as an American let alone "just take it" because we allegedly deserve it.
As so many other Americans on the board (yes, even most left-oriented ones) have told me, it's just not worth it.

As an American, I help people as an individual, and don't leave it to my government.
That attitude is why so many people thank individual Americans everyday, even well outside the US.
 
I'd just close the thread ...

Okay, it's time for the two of you to take your personal debate to PMs.
This thread quickly went off topic (to it's typical destination), as with any thread of the sort.
Since the hostages have been released, and the thread resembles nothing it was originally, I'd just close it.
 
Okay, it's time for the two of you to take your personal debate to PMs.


It's cool, think i'll just leave it for a bit - my last couple of posts have been unrelated to the thread topic anyway, merely pertaining to my views in general :rolleyes:
 
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