Ban on Gun Ownership?

There was a time where most of the people in this country and even shortly before that in the entire world didn't give a damn about slavery as long as it didn't happen to them or people they cared about like their immediate family, community, or maybe even their countrymen. For everybody else, most people didn't give a damn about it. So your saying that going against the majority in that case was wrong. Having no checks against the majority just gives you a tyranny of the majority after a while. That’s why we have entrenched rights that can’t be taken away.

The scenarios are a wee bit different. The removal of both, however, are centered around the idea that both involve hurting other people (except in the cases of suicide naturally, which I choose to ignore: suicidal people can always find a way to get themselves killed). Regardless, the issue is academic; people seem to be against slavery these days and lo and behold, it's not very common. If people one day are against guns, I see absolutely no reason why they should still be around. Morals change, and laws should change along with them. I fail to see how "tyranny of the majority" is any worse than "tyranny of tradition".

The only way you could logically think the way you do is if you believe in no natural rights for humanity.

Funny you should mention that.

Says who?

The status quo. The burden of proof generally lies on the one making an assumption of existence. Otherwise I could just as well claim that is well within my natural rights to stab you in the eye, and maintain that I have that right until proven otherwise. Remember, we're talking about natural rights here, not the implementation of law.

The last time I checked, quite a few people out there considered the right to self-defense to be the first law of nature. It would be hard pressed for anybody outside of a totalitarian regime to actually think self-defense isn’t a human right. It would also be kind of stupid to have a right to defend yourself from other people and governments yet not have an effective means to do so. It would make the right worthless. I would like you to try and explain otherwise.

First explain to me why a weapon specifically designed to kill is the only effective means of self-defense available. Apart from that, the efficiency of a gun as a tool for self-defense depends greatly on how well armed the opponent is. It's theoretically possible to be assaulted by a M1 Abrams against which a firearm would be useless, but I wouldn't propose allowing people to carry HEAT rounds around. The logic reminds me of the whole cold war mentality. Sure, criminals may or may not be able to get guns regardless of how easy or hard it is for the general population, but another factor to consider is that they may be less inclined to kill you if they know you'll probably not try to kill them. If killing you is their intention, you won't stand a chance whether you're armed or not.

Anybody that points to a piece of paper, an ideal, or their leaders as what guarantees their rights is nothing but a subject of somebody else in disguise waiting for the next time their rights get taken away. Somebody that can guarantee their freedoms by force if need be is a true freeman.

I must say, I find it quite ironic that you are adamantly against the majority deciding something, but quite keen on the idea on the guy with the biggest weapon implementing his views by force. "Defending your freedom" is the PC version of the same concept. It's essentially why there is a military and a police. The alternative is that the entire population is turned into an unorganized militia (command structures are, after all, another form of leadership which apparently cannot be trusted). We're getting dangerously close to anarchy here (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it wasn't for people generally being selfish jerks).

Then again, going back to slavery for example, I could say that before a few hundred years ago the right to be free of it wasn't considered a universal human right by the vast majority of the world. So what's your point? Are you saying being free from slavery has only been a right for the past few hundred years at best instead of being a natural liberty since the beginning of humanity?

Well, since I don't actually believe in natural rights, given that they are so frequently changed, added, removed and ignored and often completely arbitrary, I doubt you'd like my answer to that question. The only way you'll be able to convince me that there are universal, natural rights, and that these happen to include whatever issue you wish to debate (guns in this case) would be to show me that they will always be accepted as such. Good luck with that, I reckon there's at least a couple of billion years left for the universe before it is crushed or grows too hot or cold (depending on the rate of entropy vs rate of growth) to sustain life. If not, they'll just be a passing trend, and 500 years from now, people might look back and think how stupid some were to say that having a gun was a natural right, in the same way I assume you look back and thinking how stupid some were to say that owning slaves was a natural right. Like I said, morals change. As does our perception of what these "natural rights" are, which, at least to me, is a strong indication that there are none; only commonly accepted morals at one specific point in history.

Isn't this a classic representation of a pure democracy ?

A bit mob rulish, IMO.

It's pretty awful, yes, but I prefer the current majority deciding over the majority from decades or centuries ago deciding. Actually, my first choice for government would be the enlightened despot, or Plato's republic, if it worked. The problem is that even the best of leaders tend to be corrupted eventually and/or fail to step down if they are no longer fit to lead (which leads me back to my thesis that deep down, everyone really are total bastards, some are just better at fooling others and themselves).
 
I had a very interesting experience last year on Constitution Day that I thought applied to this debate. One of my sons is like a scary genius type and he got selected as one of about 30 middle school students in Florida to go to the Florida Supreme Court and spend an afternoon talking about the Constitution with the justices. Not exactly a right wing bunch of jurists as anyone who remembers the 2000 election can attest. One of the things they had the kids talk about was the Bill of Rights. The question they posed was, "If you could keep only five of the rights which ones would you keep." These very well read and thoughtful middle schoolers prepared answers and discussed them in a roundtable with the justices. A very small minority of the kids, including my son, wanted to keep their right to keep and bear arms. They went through all the discussion and the Chief Justice said, "How are you going to keep the government from taking the rest of your rights away if you don't have guns?" Most of the other justices shook their heads in agreement. I found it very interesting in a group of what most would consider very liberal jutices that they thought gun rights were important.
 
I had a very interesting experience last year on Constitution Day that I thought applied to this debate. One of my sons is like a scary genius type and he got selected as one of about 30 middle school students in Florida to go to the Florida Supreme Court and spend an afternoon talking about the Constitution with the justices. Not exactly a right wing bunch of jurists as anyone who remembers the 2000 election can attest. One of the things they had the kids talk about was the Bill of Rights. The question they posed was, "If you could keep only five of the rights which ones would you keep." These very well read and thoughtful middle schoolers prepared answers and discussed them in a roundtable with the justices. A very small minority of the kids, including my son, wanted to keep their right to keep and bear arms. They went through all the discussion and the Chief Justice said, "How are you going to keep the government from taking the rest of your rights away if you don't have guns?" Most of the other justices shook their heads in agreement. I found it very interesting in a group of what most would consider very liberal jutices that they thought gun rights were important.

The idea that gun ownership gives some protection against governments taking your rights away is so absurd that I run out of words!And that senior justices actually believe it is quite alarming.
My country went from a feudal state in which most people were the property of the King into a democracy ; certainly people had to fight for their rights but we didn't gain them because we were armed and we won't lose them because we aren't.
 
My country went from a feudal state in which most people were the property of the King into a democracy; certainly people had to fight for their rights but we didn't gain them because we were armed

We, on the other hand, did. The United States was born out of armed insurrection. We weren't willing to pin our hopes for democracy on the whim of monarchs or the uncertain evolution of society. So our tradition is different. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. And while a popular insurrection would almost certainly be overwhelmed by a modern government (assuming the military remained loyal to the government), an armed and determined populace could still cause a great deal of chaos, for potentially a very long time, should that extremity ever occur. That's an imposing prospect to most who might otherwise be tempted to abuse their power.
 

Facetious

Moderated
bombar d said:
They went through all the discussion and the Chief Justice said, "How are you going to keep the government from taking the rest of your rights away if you don't have guns?" Most of the other justices shook their heads in agreement. I found it very interesting in a group of what most would consider very liberal jutices that they thought gun rights were important.
You know, I've heard this before and I thank you for reminding us.
If Second Amendment Rights were seized, tensions would run high and the people would have to live their lives as if the nation was on a "HIGH" terrorist ALERT.
As reality sets in, human nature would then manifest a domineering, rigid and dogmatic governance. No thanks!

We must ask ourselves why have the "good" gun stories been omitted within the reporting duties of the MSM ? Why ?
We only hear about the criminal element with respect to firearms. Never do we hear the accounts of good, law abiding, tax paying, productive members of society removing a habitual felon from our overcrowded courtrooms.

Marq -
"I" live my day to day under the rightful assumption that absolute power absolutely corrupts. There's too many examples to list !
Only in a world where a government could be static could your stance be feasible, IMO. The reality is, I would have to live in fear and / or feel like a lesser than human being w/out our Second Amendment Rights.
I emphasize "our" as many Americans need the refresher that the government was set up to answer to the people, not the people answering to the government.


I think that these justices have to believe that their lifestyles would become all the more dangerous if 2A rights we're amended. Many of them enjoy the right, BTW.
Anything in large numbers must endure misfortunes and casualties, that's just life.
Sometimes people like to have an insurance plan. What if ? is all I need to know.

Perhaps an armed, law abiding citizen could actually arrive at the aid of a member of our govt. :dunno: It has occurred. We just don't get to hear about it, unless of course we read a handful of obscure "in house" journals.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Hope you Pros (2A) aren't running dry.

* Used to get Aussie, So. Afrikan and Venezuelan 7.62 "NATE" BALL battle packs for about $ 29 -

Them days are long gone !

Metal commodities are amazing lately ! :shocked:
 
We, on the other hand, did. The United States was born out of armed insurrection. We weren't willing to pin our hopes for democracy on the whim of monarchs or the uncertain evolution of society. So our tradition is different. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. And while a popular insurrection would almost certainly be overwhelmed by a modern government (assuming the military remained loyal to the government), an armed and determined populace could still cause a great deal of chaos, for potentially a very long time, should that extremity ever occur. That's an imposing prospect to most who might otherwise be tempted to abuse their power.

No , you didn't have to fight for your rights, you already had them EXCEPT that you weren't allowed to be represented in Parliament in London.There was already habeas corpus, the right to a fair trial and the presumption of innocence.The US constitution was based on English concepts of freedom (written by Englishmen too) and the powers of the President were a straight copy from those of the English monarch.The monarch has fewer powers nowadays! Like in England these concepts were more theoretical than real (as an example the US retained slavery which was never legal here)
 
No , you didn't have to fight for your rights, you already had them EXCEPT that you weren't allowed to be represented in Parliament in London.

That's a rather HUGE exception.

While worthy of profligate taxation and other exploitation, we weren't worthy of representation among our "masters" - and forget about any hope of self-governance.

Liberty sounds like a good reason to fight to me, particularly to a populace long weary of subjugation to tyrannical monarchs and churches.

(as an example the US retained slavery which was never legal here)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain_and_Ireland
 
That's a rather HUGE exception.

While worthy of profligate taxation and other exploitation, we weren't worthy of representation among our "masters" - and forget about any hope of self-governance.

Liberty sounds like a good reason to fight to me, particularly to a populace long weary of subjugation to tyrannical monarchs and churches.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain_and_Ireland

It WAS a major problem but although the King was advised to allow it he was mad at the time so that was that-interesting to wonder how the world would now be if he'd changed his mind.Canada became effectively self governing in 1867 and without the War of Independence presumably all British North America would have been included.Slavery abolished in 1833 so no Civil War and on it goes .
I come across the word "tyrannical" so often in American forums , as if the pre Revolution history has been rewritten.Rule in the colonies was very far from tyrannical by 18th century standards.Most inhabitants would have been too remote to be affected by it. Taxes were very low, less than a quarter of European levels and the whole system was inefficient .
Worth remembering that not everybody had the right to vote anyway in those days-usually only the head of the household.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Our imbecilic government now has this nation on course for a rationing of food. Two years ago, you couldn't get odds on that in Vegas lol !

Do any of you anti gunners have it within yourselves to think greater than . . say, two months ahead ?

Our most formidable opponents think generations ahead in time and here's the expedient Western world, instant gratification :dunno:
 
Our imbecilic government now has this nation on course for a rationing of food. Two years ago, you couldn't get odds on that in Vegas lol !

Do any of you anti gunners have it within yourselves to think greater than . . say, two months ahead ?

Our most formidable opponents think generations ahead in time and here's the expedient Western world, instant gratification :dunno:

in addition to stocking up on guns and ammunition, it's also our responsibility to raise the future generations of battle-ready patriots.

plant the seed.
 
The idea that gun ownership gives some protection against governments taking your rights away is so absurd that I run out of words!And that senior justices actually believe it is quite alarming.
My country went from a feudal state in which most people were the property of the King into a democracy ; certainly people had to fight for their rights but we didn't gain them because we were armed and we won't lose them because we aren't.

Some of the greatest thinkers that this world has ever seen thought fit to think that the populace should not be disarmed because government did have the possibility of becoming something undesirable. When I read the Federalist Papers, the Anti Federalist Papers, and the Constitution itself I am blown away by how thoughtful they were on both sides of the fight. I don't think they arrived at it lightly. Those Hamiltons, Madisons, and Jays were way smarter than anyone arguing this issue today including your humble commentor.

Publius
 
Some of the greatest thinkers that this world has ever seen thought fit to think that the populace should not be disarmed because government did have the possibility of becoming something undesirable. When I read the Federalist Papers, the Anti Federalist Papers, and the Constitution itself I am blown away by how thoughtful they were on both sides of the fight. I don't think they arrived at it lightly. Those Hamiltons, Madisons, and Jays were way smarter than anyone arguing this issue today including your humble commentor.

Publius

My point was that we have brought about changes to government not because of being armed (though until 1920 there was no gun control in the UK) but through popular persuasion and public pressure.Americans almost throw up their hands in horror at the mere word "government"...I wonder if it's because they have been fed nonsense about having to cast off a tyrannical yoke and risk losing their hard won freedom? Yet after Independence they were little freer than their English counterparts, in some ways less so, except that they governed themselves.
There is no talk of seizing Second Amendment rights, the question is simply whether there were any rights there to start with.
 
Some of the greatest thinkers that this world has ever seen thought fit to think that the populace should not be disarmed because government did have the possibility of becoming something undesirable. When I read the Federalist Papers, the Anti Federalist Papers, and the Constitution itself I am blown away by how thoughtful they were on both sides of the fight. I don't think they arrived at it lightly. Those Hamiltons, Madisons, and Jays were way smarter than anyone arguing this issue today including your humble commentor.

No, not really. Hero worship aside, they were no more special than anyone else. Referring to them as "some of the greatest thinkers that this world has ever seen" is quite frankly ridiculous beyond words.
Regardless, their opinion and conclusion was based on conditions from over 200 years ago. Whether they came to a correct conclusion or not then doesn't mean it's correct today. If their reasoning was so sound, then use that reasoning to justify your position, not an argument that essentially boils down to "because they said so".
 
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