Are you worried about the economy?

[ChefChiTown]

You got a very unrealistic view of what people are able to do. Just going out there and magically being able to find or do something doesn't happen. I would say with all those things you mentioned a lot of people are already at the point where they can't go any lower, don't have any of those options at their disposal at all, or can't find anything that doesn't exist in the first place.

Let me word this another way...

One month before the media shouted "ECONOMIC CRISIS" at the top of their lungs, nobody was "hurting". Everybody was living their lives the same way that they always had. But, the very minute that people saw their local newscaster talk about how bad the economy was, people started freaking out. People started bitching about how expensive things were and how hard it was to survive.

What changed in that 30 days? NOTHING. The only thing that was different was the fact that the media spread a fear of this "economic crisis" all over the place. Other than that, NOTHING changed.

Yet, people act as if we are all going to die. A lot of people aren't doing everything that they can. I'm sorry to say that, but I believe it to be true. Not to say that there aren't people who are busting their asses to make things happen for themselves, but if you look at our huge increase in unemployment claims, THAT will tell you the reality of the situation.

Are companies laying people off? Yes. Is it more difficult to find a job now than it was about a year ago? Yes. But, are there no jobs that are being offered? NO. Is absolutely nobody hiring? NO.

There are jobs out there waiting to be filled. That is why I said that people need to get off of their asses and find them. Sitting around and waiting for handouts is only making our situation worse.

 

[loveakirayui]

The reality is alot of companies have hiring freezes. So I think those of you who are saying there are jobs out there are putting it too lightly. I know for a fact my company have laid off people and have implemented a hiring freeze since like april of last year. Alot of companies have done the same, so literally 95% of companies out there are not hiring. I would say that this is a substantial crisis. To say that there are jobs out there is highly misleading and false.

 

[ChefChiTown]

The reality is alot of companies have hiring freezes. So I think those of you who are saying there are jobs out there are putting it too lightly. I know for a fact my company have laid off people and have implemented a hiring freeze since like april of last year. Alot of companies have done the same, so literally 95% of companies out there are not hiring. I would say that this is a substantial crisis. To say that there are jobs out there is highly misleading and false.

95% of companies aren't hiring? HAHAHAHA, dude...you can't be serious. You honestly think that 95% of ALL companies in America aren't hiring? Pfft, no.

I take it that you haven't actually looked for a job? Pick up a newspaper, look online, go pound the pavement, open your eyes...there are plenty of companies looking for a job; you just might not want the jobs that they are offering.

 

[loveakirayui]

i actually still have a job thanks. but let's get an assessment of the people here? any1 here's company is still hiring? u working chef? is your company hiring? just because they put out signs for help wanted doesnt actually mean they gonna hire ppl. my company did that for the longest time until they realize the hiring feeze wasn't gonna be temporary as they thought. they still have a list of open positions for hire but yet they have a hiring freeze.

 

[ChefChiTown]

i actually still have a job thanks. but let's get an assessment of the people here? any1 here's company is still hiring? u working chef? is your company hiring? just because they put out signs for help wanted doesnt actually mean they gonna hire ppl. my company did that for the longest time until they realize the hiring feeze wasn't gonna be temporary as they thought. they still have a list of open positions for hire but yet they have a hiring freeze.

You said that 95% of companies weren't hiring, as if you were so sure of yourself, but now you're taking the stand of "I actually still have a job"...??? The reality is that there are plenty of jobs and positions to be filled. It's not a matter of if there are jobs, it's a matter of if people are willing to step off of their pedstals and take the jobs that are being offered.

I quit my job because I'm moving back to Ohio. I've been offered 3 other jobs in the past 2 weeks, all of which are in restaurants in Cleveland. Cleveland is a shitty place to have a restaurant, as restaurants tend to never make money there. Yet, I've been offered 3 jobs in the area.

And, keep in mind that I work in the restaurant industry, which is hemorraghing money, yet, there's still jobs to be found. Hmm, interesting.

Like I said before...people are lazy. If people would actually take a little bit of time off from playing video games, drinking beer, whacking off to Sears catalogs and watching re-runs of Scrubs and actually make a tiny bit of effort to go look for a job, they would find that life isn't as hard as they would like to believe that it is.

In fact, the video rental store right next door is looking to hire a night-time sales clerk. Anybody interested? I'll let the owner know, because he's been looking to hire someone for MONTHS now.

No jobs available? That's a shitty excuse.

:2 cents:

 

[Wainkerr99]

According to reports here in Oregon there is an unprecedented surge of new positions to be filled; even more than is usual for this time of year.

A new club opened in Portland - in a city which has almost 2 restaurants on every street. It is a new concept - playing music from the last 3 decades, catering for baby boomers. Funny that no-one thought of it already before now.

 

[ketch18]

sometimes i worry bout economy..because what if the company im working will be closed because of crisis?? i dont want to work anywhere but here!!i love the people,my work and ofcourse my salary!!hahah!:glugglug:




____________________
sofa beds

 

[Member2019]

I hate to say this Prof, but somebody has to. You're not smart. You're not as smart as you think you are, not just in common sense either, but in textbook intelligence also.

Never said I was. I have my education and experience and people will differ. In fact, if you believe I have a traditional engineering degree, it means I am one of the smallest demographics in the US. My views are a tiny minority of people.

You might have a few people that agree with you, but that's more because they don't know enough either to see past it or you tell them what they like to hear.

Believe what you wish. It's what most people do anyway.

There is a big difference between just making excuses and having true reasoning based in reality that common sense and experience gives you.

Right now there are a lot of people in debt they could never have afforded. There are a lot of people who live wholly unlike they should have ever. People went en masse into their own holes and looked at each other and said, "oh, if they are all right I'll be all right."

Now do the people you speak of fall into that category? The ones making $50-100K/year and spending too much? Or others? Understand my point, and the sheer statistics right now, focus on the people who "fucked up" that way. I can't answer for him, but I bet Chef was as well. The "middle class" that was trying to live "high class" -- a rather large problem right now.

I don't know maybe you live in some Horatio Alger version of reality where people magically can get anything to happen by just "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" and good fortune will land their way.

Who said "good fortune"? I never did. Life isn't about "good fortune." In fact, that answer right there is proof that you don't understand what I'm saying.

Maybe your afraid your economic libertarian/capitalistic philosophies don't always work in the real world and don't want to accept it. I don't know.

It only works if people believe live it. Right now people believe they are entitled to many things.

I do know people that would almost kill for a minimum wage job right now, which is pretty sad.

Okay, great job in demonizing my point to apply to where it did not!

Then if you cannot find a job, better oneself with education. It's the best time to do it. The great thing about down times is that there are always opportunities over the horizon. Better yourself for those times.

Obviously my statements did not apply to people who were already having trouble finding work during "good times." People who are merely looking for food and shelter at times. But thank you for using the "bleeding heart" attitude to apply it to them.

Out of my immediate family (brother, sisters, and parent) 2 of the six of us have found work and one is for minimum wage and it's not like we haven't just lost our jobs recently or we haven’t been looking for years.

If you have been looking for years, then that's an even bigger problem. It often means you have absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to do much else.

We had good times for several years. One should have been working on improving ones qualifications during those good years. The government gives out a lot of money to go to school, some of which does not need to be paid back. I know they are curtailing those programs now (sadly enough), but back when the economy was strong, one should have taken them up on it.

Even someone like myself, and my wife, regularly go back to school to improve our resumes. It's called "lifelong education." I know people don't like that, but it's one of the things that keeps one marketable for jobs.

Furthermore, it seems you have at least Internet. How well are you doing? What expenses can you share, cut, etc...? Right now it's about families helping each other, and then helping others as they can. Don't wait for the government.

It's not something that is uncommon around here and many other places in the country.

Now, no. But if one had trouble getting a job before, then that's a real problem. I don't know what to tell you except that it doesn't bode well for one's future. Especially if you could not find jobs in "good times."

I see a lot of minimum wage jobs around myself. I still see people hiring. Has your family considered moving elsewhere?

Still with the scenario you gave one would have to somehow look past the facts both people are working and they both have to be working unlike in decades past, meaning they are probably screwed if they ever want a family even a small one and have something other than television raise their children, they probably have crappy health care if they have it at all, there is a good chance they work some grueling job where their body will get broken down for the benefit of other people as the years pass with nothing to show for it, like my late father, and the prospect for them ever getting lasting financial security or a better life get dimmer as time goes on.

True. Right now you're fucked. It's difficult to save for a future on minimum wage. Heck, my wife and I save $40K/year and that will get us to retire on only a minimum-wage-like income equivalent, assuming the $1M we save over 25 years turns into $2.5M.

At the same time, my best friend who has made only $26-35,000/year and has still managed to save 6 figures for retirement over a dozen years (he's not far behind myself, although he started working earlier and didn't have a few "bad years" like I did in early consulting). He has a family of 4 as well, although it helps he makes that without her working (and she can be a stay home mom). He cuts out all sorts of alleged "necessities" such as cable TV, Internet (uses it at work after work), etc... to save money. I really respect someone like him.

So I really don't have my sympathy for people who spend more than him and get themselves into trouble. I'm not saying that is your family. I'm saying it is what it is -- people make do with what they have.

Saving for their kids college education would be an epic struggle. They would probably have to continually live one small step from some unforeseeable event leads them to catastrophe because they have no margin for error. Of course all that depends on the fact they can even find and continually keep that sad minimum wage job in the first place which is very far from certain.

Then they should better themselves with education and other opportunities. I know plenty of people who work a full time job and go to school at night. They better themselves. They create opportunities.

As even Chef pointed out, there are a lot of jobs that pay $20/hour. They are within reach. A little education and retraining goes a long way. I have several colleagues in various offices I hooked up with city programs that did such in 6-9 months and emerged with far better jobs.

I guess if your definition of "sweat a new lifestyle" includes living paycheck to paycheck for pretty much all of your life and having to worry each day what the future holds or being on the bring of homelessness and soon to be homeless if things don't get better soon then you might be right.

Okay, stop demonizing what I said as it does apply selectively.

Right now our economic issues are due to people spending far more than they could afford. People that were "okay" during the most recent economic boom and had jobs.

If you want to take my statements and demonize it to people weren't okay during the most recent economic boom, then that's on you, not me. Don't throw the bleeding heart at my statements when my statements did not apply to them.

Maybe...just maybe it isn't their fault they and we as a people are in this mess. Maybe…just maybe the people you speak of aren’t irresponsible at all.

Again, I'm talking about the current economic crisis -- people who were middle class and now no longer. The ones that caused a lot of the mess.

I'm not talking about people who had little purchasing power in this most recent housing boom.

Maybe...just maybe they have been the victim of a system both created and tailored to benefit the relatively few at the expense of everybody else, and as time goes on the breaking point gets harder to push back and contain.

People who look at themselves as victims have found the excuse they need. It's rather sad. I know a lot of people who live minimally and don't consider themselves "victims." They just consider themselves "lucky" to have what they have.

And they live full, fruitful lives.

They don't keep blaming others for what they don't have. They don't keep throwing up the complaint that others don't deserve what they have. They recognize it's in attitude.

Maybe your economic philosophies just don’t amount to much when it comes to it. Then again, you’re the smart one Prof. What do I know?

I believe everyone is responsible for themselves first. Then their families. Then others.

I believe strongly in helping your fellow men and women.

And I believe government is the worst way to do it. Because it's not because the government holds a gun to your head and takes half your sandwich for the poor, but they come back later for the other half to fund the agency they built.

You complain of the people who take advantage of others. I complain of the government who builds a tower and agency for itself in the name of helping others. Neither are sustainable. The government hardly protects us from anything, much less itself.

People protect themselves better from others. Hence why one must take care of oneself first, then their family, then others. The government is hardly interested in doing such. They are often interested in growing their size and influence first. While some may say that's no different than a corporation, at least a corporation has a "bottom line" to address for when they go overboard. Government does not.

Although the government and some corporations seem to be merging into the same entity lately. I honestly think we should have let the damn system fail and reinvent itself, as it is currently not sustainable as is.

I'll give you one thing. They should have given the money they gave to Wall Street to people who couldn't afford their mortgages. At least it would have helped from the bottom up.

 

[marquis2]

Who said "good fortune"? I never did. Life isn't about "good fortune." In fact, that answer right there is proof that you don't understand what I'm saying.




And I believe government is the worst way to do it. Because it's not because the government holds a gun to your head and takes half your sandwich for the poor, but they come back later for the other half to fund the agency they built.

You complain of the people who take advantage of others. I complain of the government who builds a tower and agency for itself in the name of helping others. Neither are sustainable. The government hardly protects us from anything, much less itself.

People protect themselves better from others. Hence why one must take care of oneself first, then their family, then others. The government is hardly interested in doing such. They are often interested in growing their size and influence first. While some may say that's no different than a corporation, at least a corporation has a "bottom line" to address for when they go overboard. Government does not.

Although the government and some corporations seem to be merging into the same entity lately. I honestly think we should have let the damn system fail and reinvent itself, as it is currently not sustainable as is.

I'll give you one thing. They should have given the money they gave to Wall Street to people who couldn't afford their mortgages. At least it would have helped from the bottom up.

YOu seem so locked into the false notion that government is bad that you seem unable to see other issues clearly.This is the modern world and it just can't run without a large administration.If you think government is bad then look around the world to see what it's like when it breaks down.

 

[Member2019]

YOu seem so locked into the false notion that government is bad that you seem unable to see other issues clearly.

Government isn't bad. Government building institutions for itself is bad. Government making itself a requirement in areas it is not is bad.

This is the modern world and it just can't run without a large administration.If you think government is bad then look around the world to see what it's like when it breaks down.

Government breaks down quite well when it gets too large too! One could argue the current non-sense was not a result of deregulation, but assumption that the government would save defaults.

Hell, I'm still awaiting for left-wing liberals to answer my most common question. Why oh why do you guys advocate sending money to the same, single, large federal institution that can also declare war? If we're going to make the government a large, charitable organization (despite the inefficiency of using the government for such), why don't we leave it more state-level where there is no such defense-expenses, let alone the spending is more local and there are 51 different places for lobbyists to lobby (instead of 1)? Why is it that no liberal wants to touch that one?

The only thing that gets too large and still is good is a nice set of curves. Must ... resist ... responding ... to ... these ... threads ...

 

[Facetious]

Re: Are you worried about the economy?
Really, it's well beyond that. :o


Will there ever be another economy is quesion.

 

[busenbust]

IMF, industrial production figures, vehicle sales (esp. in UK, Germany, France), stock market (esp. China, Brazil and FTSE/Dax, S&P), interest rates (historically low), Bond market, all say: it's over. I can't get argue with Officialdom - can I???? :clown:s , the lot of them.

 

[urgeag]

Americans are trained to spend, not save, and be oblivous to it all when buying a $400,000 house with nothing down, a no interest mortgage and a joint income of about $60,000 with two new cars in the garage.

This is the greatest concern is our inability to plan for anything but the next 5 minutes- it the reason we let the economy, the environment et all go the way they are going, because i dont think the consequences of ignoring this things are a reality to us...unfortunately by the time they are a reality, it will most liely be too late:dunno:

 

[urgeag]

IMF, industrial production figures, vehicle sales (esp. in UK, Germany, France), stock market (esp. China, Brazil and FTSE/Dax, S&P), interest rates (historically low), Bond market, all say: it's over. I can't get argue with Officialdom - can I???? :clown:s , the lot of them.

Agreed- always consider the source- it was officialdom that sayd the bubble that just burst was not a bubble and there was no reason to think it wouldn't just keep growing...

if you look at the contrarians, there are as many people saying the world economy is far from recovering and has the potential to fall much further...

If i knew for sure either way i would tell all of you the secret so we could make a couple hundred mill and then buy an island where we create our own economy...free peeks and free one points would be a legit form of currency....

 

[busenbust]

^I'll just carry on trading forex and the daily S&P...let the chips fall...:yahoo:

 

[urgeag]

^I'll just carry on trading forex and the daily S&P...let the chips fall...:yahoo:

which direction you betting the dollar will go???

 

[busenbust]

^^On a daily/weekly basis I trade eur/yen and gbp/usd and eur/usd. I don't trade on a long-term position; I close out all my positions on a daily basis (by and large). The greenback? IMO? I'm bullish.

 

[D-rock]

Right now there are a lot of people in debt they could never have afforded. There are a lot of people who live wholly unlike they should have ever. People went en masse into their own holes and looked at each other and said, "oh, if they are all right I'll be all right.

Yeah, there is also a lot of people in debt because of their own fault. Don't lump those people in with people that intentionally made bad choices.

Who said "good fortune"? I never did. Life isn't about "good fortune." In fact, that answer right there is proof that you don't understand what I'm saying.

It's things like this that show just how out of touch you are. Life is almost all about good fortune. Whether you want to admit it or not, success in life is largely do to luck to a very large degree. You statement is proof that not only do you not understand what I'm saying, but at a fundamental level you have detachment from reality, in my opinion, because is it very convent and reassuring for you to think everything was done by yourself and you weren’t a very small twist of faith away from disaster or being like all the other masses of the poor. It think on a fundamental level if you had to admit that to yourself you would also have to admit that being poor isn't always that person's fault or that the circumstances of life might conspire to keep people down, and that there is nothing really separating you from anybody else other than being in the right place at the right time. Of course if that happened you would either have all your thinking come crashing down on you. You would have to admit that either your beliefs were pretty naive and wrong or you were just incredibly selfish and needed a rationalization to make yourself feel better about it. Maybe even both those reasons are true and you just don't want to admit it.

It only works if people believe live it. Right now people believe they are entitled to many things.

OR..., it just plain doesn't work. Or at least it doesn't work at improving the world and for the betterment of EVERYBODY. Sure the mathematics they teach one about economics are sound, but that's at fueling a system that exploits the many for the benefit of the few. The the ultimate goals of a system are corrupt it doesn't matter how well that system works. I could also say that believing in magical pixies that will come down and fix the economy for everybody and make it so nobody in the world is poor would only work if people believed in it. You believe in a system that needs greed to make it function in the first place and yet people like you somehow think it's going to improve condition for everybody. I shouldn't have to point out how faulty that belief is.

Okay, great job in demonizing my point to apply to where it did not!

Then if you cannot find a job, better oneself with education. It's the best time to do it. The great thing about down times is that there are always opportunities over the horizon. Better yourself for those times.

Obviously my statements did not apply to people who were already having trouble finding work during "good times." People who are merely looking for food and shelter at times. But thank you for using the "bleeding heart" attitude to apply it to them.

If you have been looking for years, then that's an even bigger problem. It often means you have absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to do much else.

We had good times for several years. One should have been working on improving ones qualifications during those good years. The government gives out a lot of money to go to school, some of which does not need to be paid back. I know they are curtailing those programs now (sadly enough), but back when the economy was strong, one should have taken them up on it.

Again, this shows your detacement from reality. The view that the govement gives out that much money for education is very very grossly exageraged, espcially how much more we need. Where I'm at and in many places around the country there haven't been good times since 1998 or even a long time before that. Even then a lot of those places weren't in good times so much as it wasn't quite as bad. Some places have been stugling with poverty for a long time now. What's really the sadest part of your belief, is your thinking that somehow it's always people's fault when they don't get any advanced education. (Not to mention their normal public education might not have been great in the first place either.) It's one of those things where you might think you're smart, but most common people can poke a whole in your common sense in a bout three seconds. Like I said you have a detacement from reality. There are masses of people out there that can't reasonably get that. It's not that they don't want it, but there are so many obstiles, with cost being just one of the many, even if it's still the biggest. You can scream at the top of your lungs that that's not the case, but it won't make it any more true.

As far as qualifications I'm willing to work. I work hard. I'm willing to learn. I've never missed a day of work. I'm smarter than most people. I have had several people tell me I'm the best worker they have seen. I'm willing to do whatever it takes as long as I'm treated fairly. All that sperates me from others is oprotunity, which I have never had. That should be good enough. What's ironic about your statment is that it's you and people like you and their philosophies that have controlled the economy and have made the laws that are the root cause to why people like me have been screwed over. You and people like you and your selfishness are the reason people like me are in the predicament they are in. Don't blaim us when others that think only of themselves set the stage of our society.

Even someone like myself, and my wife, regularly go back to school to improve our resumes. It's called "lifelong education." I know people don't like that, but it's one of the things that keeps one marketable for jobs.

Furthermore, it seems you have at least Internet. How well are you doing? What expenses can you share, cut, etc...? Right now it's about families helping each other, and then helping others as they can. Don't wait for the government.

If I cut out the Internet I might save a whole 10 dollars a month. Of course I would also cut out one of the biggest tools I use to look for a job considering to drive to each individual place, that may or may not being hiring (they almost certainly would be) would probably cost me 4 or 5 dollars just in gas alone, not to mention the wear in tear of an old car I can't afford to fix. Considering I have about a 1/5,000 chance of actually getting one of those jobs if they are taking applications it's sadly more feasible to sort through ones on a system where almost all the local businesses put out ads for application. Not that gives me much hope. The only things that I could cut now would be the telephone (which is a bad ideal in a rural area.) and the electricity. Any luxury was cut a long long time ago. I've even cut back on food recently. I'm not stupid. It's not like I have been living it up for the past couple of years unable to afford things I don't need. I'm a small step away from losing my house and going on welfare. It's actually coming pretty soon for me baring a miracle. I don't make a big deal of it on the boards but I'm very close to losing everything, and what very little I still have I won't have anymore.

As for yourself, I'm glad your in an advantageous position to keep getting an education, and being able to afford it and put time into it. Congratulations, you lucked out. Not everybody is in your position.

Please spear me the whole community helping each other crap the whole Republican/Libertarian view tries to spew. I sure as hope that's not your answer to problems like this. It's things like that that make people with common sense roll their eyes. Like I said it just shows more detachment from reality, and if that had to be the answer it would be so enormously inadequate for everybody as to be laughable. Yet, you wonder why so many people don't take Libertarian economic views seriously. However, if your interested in my personal position everybody in my immediate family is almost struggling as bad as I am and everybody else in my family I have talked to once or twice in my life if at all and there virtual strangers and not going to help me.

Now, no. But if one had trouble getting a job before, then that's a real problem. I don't know what to tell you except that it doesn't bode well for one's future. Especially if you could not find jobs in "good times."

I see a lot of minimum wage jobs around myself. I still see people hiring. Has your family considered moving elsewhere?

1. It takes recourses to move. It takes a place to move into and a job set up for you before you get there. That's another thing people like you always fail to look at. For many people out there moving is unpracticed to the point of it being borderline impossible.
2. Moving some other place blind in the hopes it might be better is pretty stupid.
3. Some people have others they need to take care of that can't move.

Then they should better themselves with education and other opportunities. I know plenty of people who work a full time job and go to school at night. They better themselves. They create opportunities.

As even Chef pointed out, there are a lot of jobs that pay $20/hour. They are within reach. A little education and retraining goes a long way. I have several colleagues in various offices I hooked up with city programs that did such in 6-9 months and emerged with far better jobs.

Assuming there is a place nearby where people could do where do people get time to sleep, or study or do all the rest of the stuff they need to actually take their education seriously. The fact they have to do that while working a full time job compromises their education. Not to mention that if they make a low wage they are setting them up for disaster if they have some unforeseen expense or loose their job. All of that is a moot point however because so many people either can't get a job or can't get one that lets them pay for it in the first place. That's what you don't get. For enormous amounts of people out there really isn't a reasonable opportunity.

Okay, stop demonizing what I said as it does apply selectively.

Right now our economic issues are due to people spending far more than they could afford. People that were "okay" during the most recent economic boom and had jobs.

If you want to take my statements and demonize it to people weren't okay during the most recent economic boom, then that's on you, not me. Don't throw the bleeding heart at my statements when my statements did not apply to them.

Again, I'm talking about the current economic crisis -- people who were middle class and now no longer. The ones that caused a lot of the mess.

I'm not talking about people who had little purchasing power in this most recent housing boom.

Their hasn't been any real economic boom since the 60s. We have been going downhill since the early 70s All the housing stuff is just another in a long sting of things that have slowly brought us down, by economic principles of people that think like you no less. Don't try to play if off as some blip on the radar stopping our economic success by people that got in over their heads. It was just the straw that broke the camels back this time. To think that if somehow that didn't happen we would be doing great now is foolish. There were a lot of people that haven't been ok even if you classify them that way. It took them much more education and much more labor to get what they had before, especially if you count the amount of two income households that have popped up in the last half century while household income hasn't gone anywhere for like 90% of the people. Basically people you think are doing all right are now getting poorer, working more for less, have less job security now and in the future, have less health coverage, have less free time, have to pay more for neccesities, and have a harder time saving for retirement. People you classify as doing well continue to become a ever dwindling portion of the population. Of course if we had a sane economic principles instead of our greed ethic and tailoring our economy to the very richest among us more people would have been able to afford their homes more easily and the whole housing crisis wouldn't have occurred in the first place, or at least it would have been significantly better than it is now.

People who look at themselves as victims have found the excuse they need. It's rather sad. I know a lot of people who live minimally and don't consider themselves "victims." They just consider themselves "lucky" to have what they have.

And they live full, fruitful lives.

They don't keep blaming others for what they don't have. They don't keep throwing up the complaint that others don't deserve what they have. They recognize it's in attitude.

They can blame or not blame whomever they chose. I'm not them. Maybe a lot of them just don't care that they were probably taken advantage of or screwed over by others that couldn't restrain their need for ridiculously more than they need. Maybe, in what's even sadder, they don't care that others out there were screwed over also. Sorry, I'm not one of them. I'm not going to just stick my head in the sand or pretend to look the other way. I just call it like I know it. I'm putting blame where blame is due based not on being vindictive or vengeful or even because I'm feeling sorry for myself, but because it's the truth. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to injustices.

I also say that as a person that doesn't desire wealth. I've seen the corrupting influence greed has had, and having in excess has never interested me. I especially don't want for myself more than I would want every other person to have. I just want to do an honest days work for an honest days pay, to live reasonably with a few minor luxuries here and there, have a save, predicable, and stable future I can look forward to, and someday have a family of my own I can reasonably take care of. I don’t feel that away because I want to take things for myself. I want everything to be fair to everybody else and for them to have the same things I want, even if I have to sacrifice ever having enormous wealth to do it.

I believe everyone is responsible for themselves first. Then their families. Then others.

Yes, but there is a difference between taking care of yourself and screwing over other people to get at that. I take care of myself and my family but I'm not going to take advantage of my neighbor, my countryman, or other people in the world just to achieve that. I always find it amusing all the economic libertarians are some of the most selfish people I have ever known, have built up a whole philosophy of looking out for number 1, have a every man for themselves attitude....and then can't believe it when so many people don't like them, and for the life of them can't figure out why.

I believe strongly in helping your fellow men and women.

Hahahahah, give me a break. If you seriously believed that you wouldn't think as you do. Maybe your just that naive, but I think you just rationalize thinking you're doing it to appease your own self satisfaction that your a good person or to drown out the fact your economic beliefs pretty much do the exactly opposite of that. It would be somebody thinking they are helping their fellow man by donating part of their time being a part of the neighborhood watch while the rest of the time they work for the mob as an assassin and murder people.

And I believe government is the worst way to do it. Because it's not because the government holds a gun to your head and takes half your sandwich for the poor, but they come back later for the other half to fund the agency they built.

Yes, government does have a lot of problems, but by human nature charities are never going to come close to doing it adequately, and to think somehow big businesses are ever going to be moral or ethical enough to do it is even more foolish. I trust them even less than the government. At least the people have some say in the government although that's dying out do to, what else, money and the corruption from it.

You complain of the people who take advantage of others. I complain of the government who builds a tower and agency for itself in the name of helping others. Neither are sustainable. The government hardly protects us from anything, much less itself.

People protect themselves better from others. Hence why one must take care of oneself first, then their family, then others. The government is hardly interested in doing such. They are often interested in growing their size and influence first. While some may say that's no different than a corporation, at least a corporation has a "bottom line" to address for when they go overboard. Government does not.

Some people aren't in the position of taking care of themselves. I would say the overwhelming majority of people are in that position. That is why they have need for others to do it for them, like a government. Which is part of the reason our government exist in the first place. To provide safety and prosperity. When put in an economic perspective somehow that's wrong to people like you. That just doesn’t make sense. Yet, I'm sure you have no problem with a police department that's supposed to protect you from harm that is run by the government. I somehow doubt your going to ask that to be run by corporations without any regulation just so their wouldn’t be so many law enforcement agencies. Yet, when the government want's to stop exploitation by an economic system it shouldn't be allowed to do that in many people's view. I see no difference between the two as a matter of principle. People need protection from an economic system where they can't reasonably do it themselves.

I would also like to look out for myself, but unless they start allowing me to legally engage in acts of violence I do not have any reasonable recourse against what's wrong. Whether you like it or not the government is the only entity that's big enough and has the resources and power to do it. It's also one that's nominally under the people's control. A business has to answer to it's bottom line, but it also ONLY answers to it's bottom line. That bottom line is almost never something that’s for the benefit of the humanity and society.

 

[JordanRules]

Of course I am. But, I wish I was in the position not to worry. Must be nice.

 

[meesterperfect]

Not at all, I am the babies daddy of a few kids.
My bitch collects money from these kids.
Free food, free cash, reduced utilty bills, we pay $200.000 for rent while the
other folks in the same building pay 1,200.000 per month.
We get free medical too.
Plus we get a tax gift of about 3 grand per year, They call it a refund but its actually just free money......but I piss most of that away on clothes, jewelry (I like shiny things) and video games.

No, I'm not worrying at all.