are the 'stars and bars' offensive?

[Death-Proof-69]

...and a swastika is just a sign.
See what I did there?

actually the swastika has been around long before adolf hitler and the nazi party with various meanings...the roots of the word basically mean well being, good fortune etc and it's a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and i believe it also has roots in pre-christian anglo-saxon culture which is likely how it became attached to the nazi party...so yeah, it is just a sign and means only what people make it mean...:2 cents:

 

[roronoa3000]

^I knew that. I read a little thing called "Blade of the Immortal".

People today use it as a sign of hate and racism though, just like the Confederate flag. Hell sometimes together.

 

[Death-Proof-69]

^I knew that. I read a little thing called "Blade of the Immortal".

People today use it as a sign of hate and racism though, just like the Confederate flag. Hell sometimes together.

this is true, unfortunately, but that's how it goes i suppose, people feel the need to have a symbol to state their beliefs and to make them part of a group. it's kinda ironic that the people who flaunt symbols, such as the swastika or confederate flag, are almost always among the most ignorant when it comes to the history of said symbol...

 

[ManifestDestiny]

Don't you have slaves to be tending to?

you can be my slave.

 

[lame_excuse]

Doesn't mean squat to me. I'm a Southerner by heart, but I'm also afraid of being lynched since I'm different for being a hees-pawn-oh. Would I be offended by the flag? Only if I don't agree and feel a bit insecure about the intentions of the flag-wavers.

 

[pool_hustler]

The flag itself doesn't offend me, but the intent of its display frequently does.

Some might say it's a representation of heritage or culture, but no matter what anybody says, no matter how it's spun, no matter how anybody rationalizes it THE SOUTH'S HERITAGE IS HATE AND SLAVERY.

Well, you made some very good points, but there is another side, though it's a side that's been all but completely sublimated in the ensuing 145 years. To me a man like Robert E. Lee is a truly great american, despite the fact he was the most feared and successful rebel general. The subject is too broad for one post, but Lee possessed a kind of nobility and humanity (relative to his times) that among other things prevented the post war years from being MUCH worse than they were. So yes while that flag can be a despicable image of hate and injustice, to me it can also be reminiscent of Lee and his kind and the legions they influenced, and how those contributed to the fact our civil war ended more peacefully (in a relative sense) than probably any other civil war in history.

Actually I find Friday's avatar much more offensive because, to me, it's representative of how ungrateful some Americans are for the freedoms they enjoy without ever having lifted a finger to ensure those rights themselves.

On the contrary, if he so much as votes his conscience he has done that.
If he's demonstrated or otherwise advocated on behalf of american soldiers being foolishly or wastefully placed in harm's way he has also done that.
You don't have to wear a uniform and carry a gun to be a patriot, for goodness sakes.

 

[pool_hustler]

whether we like it or not those states had a right to secede:

When the majority of the population of any geographic area is no longer being served by the dominant government, then citizens not only have a right to secede, they have a moral obligation to do so.

There are two major facets to the secession question: 1) morality and 2) self-interest. These two items do not necessarily align with one another. When the U.S. Civil War began, the rationale for war on both sides was highly complicated. The North entered the war for two primary reasons: 1) Keeping the Union from dissolving by force and 2) forcing the issue of slavery. The first reason was immoral and the second was moral. Yet the first reason was Abraham Lincoln’s primary reason for using force to bring the Confederacy back into the Union. Lincoln felt slavery was morally wrong, but he did not declare war because of slavery. He declared war because he believed the federal government should be the highest authority in the land, and that states had no right to self-determination. Abolition was not his primary goal. Lincoln himself said this:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

Some Southerners, to be sure, fought in the Civil War to preserve the immoral institution of human slavery, but many enlisted in the war effort because they felt that the North was trying to dictate how they should live.

The outcome of the Civil War was never really in doubt. The North had vast superiority in numbers and had the industrial base. Technology is amoral, and the North held the technology – it was therefore destined for victory. While the end of the war settled the question of slavery, it did not grant equality to blacks. That issue would not be settled for another one hundred years, when the Civil Rights movement of the 1960′s forced Americans to reexamine racial inequalities in their society.

What the Civil War did accomplish was the growth of government, and the mitigation of liberty for all American citizens and residents. From the end of the war until the present day, the Federal government’s role in decision making for all Americans has grown to the point where a large segment of the American population is completely or partially dependent on theft by taxes for its well-being.

hmmmm. There are a number of flaws in this short synopsis, perhaps the most egregious being the cherry picking of an isolated, out-of-context quote by Lincoln .....in an attempt to taint the man's essence, perhaps? One makes a terrible error when one tries to portray Lincoln as a static entity rather than an enormously dynamic human being who's views on race evolved based on events and experience.

It is true that abolition was not his initial goal. It is also true that as events unfolded it became one of his two imperative goals.

 

[DJCowboy]

The flag itself doesn't offend me, but the intent of its display frequently does.



Well, you made some very good points, but there is another side, though it's a side that's been all but completely sublimated in the ensuing 145 years. To me a man like Robert E. Lee is a truly great american, despite the fact he was the most feared and successful rebel general. The subject is too broad for one post, but Lee possessed a kind of nobility and humanity (relative to his times) that among other things prevented the post war years from being MUCH worse than they were. So yes while that flag can be a despicable image of hate and injustice, to me it can also be reminiscent of Lee and his kind and the legions they influenced, and how those contributed to the fact our civil war ended more peacefully (in a relative sense) than probably any other civil war in history.

A lot of people don't realize (and they always conveniently fail to mention in schools) was that Lee was pretty much against slavery. His wife even started an (at that time) illegal school for slaves. But he did comment at one point that africans were better off here than back in Africa, which can even be argued today. He just loved his home land so much that he was willing to defend it. Another thing, that reflects upon this story, is that the mass majority of Americans and the world think the Civil War was only about slavery. That was just a section of it.

 

[pool_hustler]

Good post, DJ.
But I think you would have to agree the war was primarily about slavery being as slavery was, to one degree or another, an element of, or influential in, the other issues.
For decades leading up to the war the expansion of slavery was the nation's most divisive, most incendiary issue.

 

[bustybbwlover]

at this point it's more ridiculous than offensive to me...as to what the civil war was about, the main issue of contention was the csa attempting to secede from the usa everything else, while not unimportant, was secondary

 

[Spleen]

...and a swastika is just a sign.
See what I did there?

Yes, it is just a sign. You're catching on I see.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

The flag itself doesn't offend me, but the intent of its display frequently does.



Well, you made some very good points, but there is another side, though it's a side that's been all but completely sublimated in the ensuing 145 years. To me a man like Robert E. Lee is a truly great american, despite the fact he was the most feared and successful rebel general. The subject is too broad for one post, but Lee possessed a kind of nobility and humanity (relative to his times) that among other things prevented the post war years from being MUCH worse than they were. So yes while that flag can be a despicable image of hate and injustice, to me it can also be reminiscent of Lee and his kind and the legions they influenced, and how those contributed to the fact our civil war ended more peacefully (in a relative sense) than probably any other civil war in history.



On the contrary, if he so much as votes his conscience he has done that.
If he's demonstrated or otherwise advocated on behalf of american soldiers being foolishly or wastefully placed in harm's way he has also done that.
You don't have to wear a uniform and carry a gun to be a patriot, for goodness sakes.

Contrary to what? Your opinion over mine? Then I suppose I would have to say the same thing to you because I whole heartedly disagree.:dunno:

 

[beardog79]

No.

 

[roronoa3000]

About as offensive as a fart in the face or shittin on a grave.

 

[pool_hustler]

Contrary to what? Your opinion over mine? Then I suppose I would have to say the same thing to you because I whole heartedly disagree.:dunno:

I think I read somewhere that you're a veteran, right?
I think sometimes the military fails to appreciate just how important people like Friday are when it comes to advocating for soldiers. Voices like Friday's are sometimes the only voices preventing your lives from being squandered by reckless governmental policy.
So while I agree he should be grateful for the method by which you protect his freedom, I also believe you should be grateful for the method by which he protects yours.
Both are elemental to ensuring the freedoms we all enjoy...

...in my opinion.

 

[Jagger69]

Personally, I am not offended by it. I also happen to be Caucasian. Likewise, I don't particularly find the Nazi flag to be offensive since I am not Jewish. The Confederate flag is symbolic of much more than just slavery and I understand the basis of what makes up the underlying devotion to it by many who live right here in the same town where I live in Texas. However, regardless of how I may or may not feel about my southern heritage, I would never fly the Stars and Bars (nor the Nazi banner for that matter) on my front porch for the very reason that others with whom I share the community might take great offense to it....and justifiably so. The very display of it makes a statement that includes racist overtones to those who might view it on display regardless of the actual intentions of the person who displays it and thus cannot be condoned as appropriate in our society. Therefore, from a sociological standpoint, the answer to the OP's question is undoubtedly "YES", it is offensive.

However, as long as it is an individual and not a public institution nor a governmental agency who is displaying it, I have no particular argument with someone who chooses to display it. In America, it's perfectly permissible to show bad taste, ignorance and lack of concern for others without fear of reprisal.

 

[MrZiggles]

I think it's offensive for the reasons that have already been stated: it's a symbol of racism and oppression, etc. The First Amendment has been mentioned by some people. That makes it legal in some circumstances. Legal can still be offensive. I'm offended by Che Guevara t-shirts, but I don't think they should be banned.

 

[bustybbwlover]

all right the way i see it, if you see someone wearing a swastika, the stars and bars, a che guevara shirt, or whatever offends you just take it as a idiot warning

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I think I read somewhere that you're a veteran, right?
I think sometimes the military fails to appreciate just how important people like Friday are when it comes to advocating for soldiers. Voices like Friday's are sometimes the only voices preventing your lives from being squandered by reckless governmental policy.
So while I agree he should be grateful for the method by which you protect his freedom, I also believe you should be grateful for the method by which he protects yours.
Both are elemental to ensuring the freedoms we all enjoy...

...in my opinion.

I wasn't talking about Friday, I was talking about the peace sign over the American flag. I don't know about anyone else but I didn't go in the Corps to have somebody be my surrogate mommy. I just wanted someone to point me at my target. I was very effective at finishing the rest all by myself.

 

[Trident1]

It's not offensive to me.