Acceptance

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
If you accept the current capitalist system what you're saying is...
"Yeah, things could be better, but why not leave it like this where people starve, suffer massive inequality and the biosphere is destroyed for no good reason."

Dithcuth.
And bear in mind that reforming capitalism will lead only to it eventually returning to this state.
 
what do you propose?
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Communism is a failed theory and it only took 80 years to do it. Socialism is alive but hardly healthy. And Americans would never tolerate Socialism, so it's a moot point.
Why not? They tolerate corporate Socialism.
Also, thanks for discussing. That's what I really want from this thread.
 

Mayhem

Banned
I think what this boils down to is the basic grazer vs. predator environment that the world is made of. The predators both motivate and fuck over everything they touch. This is true with Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, Democracy, Fascism, Religion, Industrialism, Environmentalism, etc. Everything works in theory....until we get our hands on it.
 
Why not? They tolerate corporate Socialism.
Also, thanks for discussing. That's what I really want from this thread.

So, based on past and current performance of Communism, you're willing to say "Yeah, things could be better, but why not leave it like this where people starve, suffer massive inequality and the biosphere is destroyed for no good reason."

Interesting argument. I wonder where I heard that before.

I think what this boils down to is the basic grazer vs. predator environment that the world is made of. The predators both motivate and fuck over everything they touch. This is true with Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, Democracy, Fascism, Religion, Industrialism, Environmentalism, etc. Everything works in theory....until we get our hands on it.

Not a bad way to put it. Much of it comes to culture. Is there a culture to support capitalism and ... I would like to think, do you best to put into place certain protections.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
So, based on past and current performance of Communism, you're willing to say "Yeah, things could be better, but why not leave it like this where people starve, suffer massive inequality and the biosphere is destroyed for no good reason."

Interesting argument. I wonder where I heard that before.



Not a bad way to put it. Much of it comes to culture. Is there a culture to support capitalism and ... I would like to think, do you best to put into place certain protections.
We've never really seen Communism active.
 
That's the point, we're never going to. It's an inherently flawed system. That's why it never took hold in its intended form, and why it ultimately failed.

Well, sure, Communism as a theory has its flaws, although those lie mostly in the later part of the theoretical system. But capitalism has its flaws also. The biggest flaws in both theories are that they underestimate human nature and the influence "compensatory elements" like money or property have on human nature (I think Rousseau, one of the founders of modern democratic theory, was it that stated, that the first time a man stuck a pole in the ground and said "this ground is from now on my property" was the fall of mankind). That's why capitalism needs a certain degree of government regulation. But capitalism is the model that shows so far the best compatibility with democracy. Most historians and political scientists are of the opinion, that there is no system better suited to go along with democracy.
In my opinion, the best model is that of "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" (social market economy) like in Germany or some Scandinavian countries, where the goal of captalism is not just to enrich the individual with the most "entrepreneurial spirit" but to further the wealth of the community as well. Some countries even move a step further and are currently developing a system called "eco-social market economy", where the protection of the environment is becoming a pillar of the capitalistic system. Germany and Japan are doing this with great success by creating tens of thousands new jobs and a huge economy (renewable energy, more conscious and healthy food, making cities more "green", protecting endangered species etc.) in that area.
In conclusion I'd say that captalism surely is a system that can generate a lot of inequality, precarious living and working situations and frustration, but it also gives more opportunities to strive, to prosper and to pursue happiness than most other systems, if implemented with caution and care. For a (post)modern democracy, eco-social market economy is the way to go.
 
We've never really seen Communism active.

With that thought process in mind, we haven't seen Supply Side Economics active either.

Once you attempt to release any model, theory, or philosophy in the wild it will become affected by other influences and will change from the original (or pure) definition.

We don't have pure capitalism or democracy in the wild either.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
That's the point, we're never going to. It's an inherently flawed system. That's why it never took hold in its intended form, and why it ultimately failed.
So capitalism isn't an inherantly flawed system that has failed plenty of times?
I don't see the harm in giving Communism another chance.
Well, sure, Communism as a theory has its flaws, although those lie mostly in the later part of the theoretical system. But capitalism has its flaws also. The biggest flaws in both theories are that they underestimate human nature and the influence "compensatory elements" like money or property have on human nature (I think Rousseau, one of the founders of modern democratic theory, was it that stated, that the first time a man stuck a pole in the ground and said "this ground is from now on my property" was the fall of mankind). That's why capitalism needs a certain degree of government regulation. But capitalism is the model that shows so far the best compatibility with democracy. Most historians and political scientists are of the opinion, that there is no system better suited to go along with democracy.
In my opinion, the best model is that of "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" (social market economy) like in Germany or some Scandinavian countries, where the goal of captalism is not just to enrich the individual with the most "entrepreneurial spirit" but to further the wealth of the community as well. Some countries even move a step further and are currently developing a system called "eco-social market economy", where the protection of the environment is becoming a pillar of the capitalistic system. Germany and Japan are doing this with great success by creating tens of thousands new jobs and a huge economy (renewable energy, more conscious and healthy food, making cities more "green", protecting endangered species etc.) in that area.
In conclusion I'd say that captalism surely is a system that can generate a lot of inequality, precarious living and working situations and frustration, but it also gives more opportunities to strive, to prosper and to pursue happiness than most other systems, if implemented with caution and care. For a (post)modern democracy, eco-social market economy is the way to go.
I was under the impression that Japan had been flatlining for the last 20 years leading to the phrase "Japanisation".
I remain unconvinced by your point, coherantly made though it was.
With that thought process in mind, we haven't seen Supply Side Economics active either.

Once you attempt to release any model, theory, or philosophy in the wild it will become affected by other influences and will change from the original (or pure) definition.

We don't have pure capitalism or democracy in the wild either.
Finally, somebody picks me up on that!
I've been waiting a long time for somebody to point out that we haven't yet seen real capitalism.

My response is that capitalism inevitably backslides into what we have now.
 

Mayhem

Banned
VV, you are using some very narrowly defined parameters for "success" and "failure". Capitalism is a success because of its prevalence as an economic model. Even China and Vietnam have embraced it. And you and I both know that if you had described the China of today back in the '60s or '70s, you'd have been laughed out of every room. What more proof do you want?

You read my posts as much as I read yours. You know how I feel about the banks, Wall Street, the military-industrial complex, and deregulation. All these things, singly or together, don't point to the "failure" of Capitalism, just to how inept we are at handling it.

Maybe one day, a better economic model may come along. But it hasn't happened yet, Communism sure as hell isn't it, and I don't think Socialism is either.
 
I was under the impression that Japan had been flatlining for the last 20 years leading to the phrase "Japanisation".
Japan is doing better and better in fact. Of course with a certain amount of trickery (like the permant artificial upward and downward revaluation of the Yen). The economy is doing better, exports are high and they intelligently embrace new markets (as I said). Japan is not in a downward spiral. At least not yet.


I've been waiting a long time for somebody to point out that we haven't yet seen real capitalism.
Oooh, careful. That is historically incorrect. We have seen real capitalism. For example performed by the British Empire about 300 to 400 years ago (catchwords "Turkey Company", "East India Company", "Navigation Act" etc.). It just wasn't as evolved and extensive as today because for example the stock markets and the means of transaction and communication weren't as progressed obviously.
 

larss

I'm watching some specialist videos
There is no fair system. Most people will go for a system that helps themselves over everyone else as humans are basically a selfish race.
This means that pure communism can never work, because the people will do as little as possible because there is no reward for being better that your fellows.
Socialism is similar. Even a system that has some socialist values such as we see in the UK with a (flawed) benefits system and the NHS means that some people will make the system pay for them without giving anything back.
The idea that all people are born equal is self evidently cobblers.
We are all born with different talents and Capitalism in its purest form rewards those that use these talents to their best ability.
To my mind, pure capitalism would be the fairest system, rewarding those that worked hardest to better themselves and their community, but just as with pure communism and socialism, that is just a pipe dream as mankind is inherently selfish.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Nutsacking shitstain, too drunk to post a cogent reply.
Never stops me normally, but today it does.
 
There is no fair system. Most people will go for a system that helps themselves over everyone else as humans are basically a selfish race.
This means that pure communism can never work, because the people will do as little as possible because there is no reward for being better that your fellows.
Socialism is similar. Even a system that has some socialist values such as we see in the UK with a (flawed) benefits system and the NHS means that some people will make the system pay for them without giving anything back.
The idea that all people are born equal is self evidently cobblers.
We are all born with different talents and Capitalism in its purest form rewards those that use these talents to their best ability.
To my mind, pure capitalism would be the fairest system, rewarding those that worked hardest to better themselves and their community, but just as with pure communism and socialism, that is just a pipe dream as mankind is inherently selfish.

You realize that this point of view is quite naive and already tainted by an upbringing in a capitalistic society. You state yourself that human beings are basically selfish. Selfishness as a value is furthered and nurtured by capitalism. If you are brought up under the axiom, that the only way to achieve something is by being better, earning more and achieving more than others (like it would have to be in a purely capitalistic society), you inevitably become selfish and self-centered. If you don't believe that everybody should be equal (at least before the law and the constitution) you will have a hard time treating others with respect and dignity, because your goal will be to ultimately beat everyone else. The society resulting from that will not be a fair one, because not talent or hard work will be the determining factors of your success. Success will be determined by your financial background, your upbringing, your networking skills and your ability to ...well, to put it bluntly... screw others over. In a purely capitalistic system, the betterment of society and of your fellow citizens only matters in so far as it benefits your bank account. If you are talented and/or capable in a certain field, you will probably find a job there, but your chances of achieving happyness and fulfillment or a full bank account and a big house are slim at best, because you will work for one of the few corporations who will control the entire market and who will employ you at minimum wage, let you work 70 hours a week and estrange you from your product, because there will be no unions, labor laws or state regulation in a purely capitalistic system. Medical treatment, access to education, healthy food, even things that are "normal" and "commonplace" to us like the the fire department coming when your house is burning... some or all of these things will probably cost so much money, that the average Joe won't be able to afford them. There will be no governmental control over the price of energy or water. Water probably won't even be a public good. You'd just have to deal with the fact that only the rich will get the clean water. The rest will probably be better of eating snow because it probably will be healthier than drinking tap water.
 

Rattrap

Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
If you are talented and/or capable in a certain field, you will probably find a job there, but your chances of achieving happyness and fulfillment or a full bank account and a big house are slim at best, because you will work for one of the few corporations who will control the entire market and who will employ you at minimum wage, let you work 70 hours a week and estrange you from your product, because there will be no unions, labor laws or state regulation in a purely capitalistic system.
I can't remember where, but I was reading/watching/playing some sci-fi story with the standard dystopian future world, only the twist was that China was the last 'free' bastion left because corporations owned the rest of the world and virtually everybody else was slave labor. The picture is a bit simplified and this fact was not a major theme of the story, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Now if I could only remember where it came from...
 
If you accept the current capitalist system what you're saying is...
"Yeah, things could be better, but why not leave it like this where people starve, suffer massive inequality and the biosphere is destroyed for no good reason."

Dithcuth.
And bear in mind that reforming capitalism will lead only to it eventually returning to this state.

You're ghey!
 
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