Which country/culture in history has had the most influential/powerful empire?

I know the history of the US very well, thank you. ;) And I know that while forming the nation and it's constitution, the early Americans threw out more of the British antetype or model as you will than they kept. The separation of powers for example is a crucial point in which the American presidency and the English monarchy could hardly have been more different. But there is nothing to discuss about your point.
I wouldn't be the man I am today if it hadn't been for my father and the many things about him I swore I'd never emulate. Same thing goes for the US and Great Britain from almost 250 years ago to today. The US is not so much the US of today because of it's emulation of the great accomplishments in Great Britain (and there certainly have been great accomplishments like the Bill of Rights for example), but because it tried not to emulate the perceived mistakes, faults and flaws of the British system.

True enough-the founding fathers looked at what had gone before , picked out the good bits , modified some and threw out the bits they didn't like.But a lot of the thinking was British-for example Thomas Paine was very influential and wasn't an American.
The separation of powers had in fact taken place here during the Restoration-we had tried being a republic and found it worse than before so the role of the Monarchy was drastically revised into a constitutional one and the King was asked back.The president's powers match this pretty closely.
To answer a different poster's point - Britain (as opposed to England) goes back over 400 years.James VI of Scotland was offered the English Crown (as James I of Britain) which effectively united England and Scotland.
There is another factor about British influence-both the Agricultural and the Industrial Revolutions were largely centred there.By the mid 19th century it's estimated that 70% of the world's goods were manufactured here , its industrial output ,innovation and technological advances were vastly ahead of the rest of the world.Put this together with a world wide Empire and owning half the world's shipping and you see British influence all over, from the railways of South America to the plumbing in Europe.It has been said that Britain invented the modern world , changing it from a basically agricultural one to a consumer based one.
 
True enough-the founding fathers looked at what had gone before , picked out the good bits , modified some and threw out the bits they didn't like.But a lot of the thinking was British-for example Thomas Paine was very influential and wasn't an American.
The separation of powers had in fact taken place here during the Restoration-we had tried being a republic and found it worse than before so the role of the Monarchy was drastically revised into a constitutional one and the King was asked back.The president's powers match this pretty closely.
To answer a different poster's point - Britain (as opposed to England) goes back over 400 years.James VI of Scotland was offered the English Crown (as James I of Britain) which effectively united England and Scotland.
There is another factor about British influence-both the Agricultural and the Industrial Revolutions were largely centred there.By the mid 19th century it's estimated that 70% of the world's goods were manufactured here , its industrial output ,innovation and technological advances were vastly ahead of the rest of the world.Put this together with a world wide Empire and owning half the world's shipping and you see British influence all over, from the railways of South America to the plumbing in Europe.It has been said that Britain invented the modern world , changing it from a basically agricultural one to a consumer based one.

Yes, that's very true. But, I have to make some corrections or additions.
While the British tried the model of separation of powers before, as you correctly stated, it never worked to the extent, that you could have called it democratic. Take a look at the real distribution of power and at the system of "checks and balances" in Britain and the US. The justice system was as strongly separated from the executive branch as it never had been in Britain. The constitution guarantueed binding basic rights in the "Bill of Rights", something that had existed to this point only in one other country of the world (San Marino). The most grave injustice was slavery, as African-Americans didn't have the right to vote or the right to invoke the constitution. In this point, the US were sadly way behind.
Also, the agricultural revolution as it took place in Great Britain would possibly not have taken place without the Physiocrats from France like Quesnay, who stressed the importance of the agricultural sector (the division of the economy in primary, secondary and tertiary can be traced back to him). Also, even though Britain started the agricultural revolution, only a few years later Germany was way more advanced in this field because of the nationwide implementation of the crop rotation system through the Circular-Ordre of Friedrich II. Especially the massive cultivation of potatoes in Germany changed the way we eat today forever. I mean, who doesn't eat potatoe salad, mashed potatoes or fries or drinks a vodka every once in a while? And through the cultivation of potatoes, the per capita consumption of meat increased drastically, because the waste products of the cultivation process (potatoe mash for example) were used as food for animals. And because of this, the indoor breeding and housing of animals for tewlve months a years got much cheaper and in some areas even became possible for the first time.
And the output of 70% of the worldwide goods only counts manufactured, industrial products. It's obvious that Britain is way ahead, when you only count the industrial output. Even though the number is quite impressive, it doesn't include all products or goods of a national economy like todays GDP. ;)
But I'm glad that finally someone sees something else than landmass and population under control as important criteria.

Some of those are very local with comparatively little ongoing impact globally ( Aztecs, Babylon, Iroquois, Japan, Zululand)

Some of those didn't last long enough to have an impact in the long term (Germany, Mongolia)

Some seem to have had an impact primarily in the negative (France - without them the Vietnam war and the mess in Algeria wouldn't have been possible; Persia - allowed Greece to hone their skills; Russia - they made the cold war possible)

Which leaves, IMO the following candidates:

- America
- Britain
- China
- Egypt
- Greece
- India
- Rome
- Sumer
That list is quite good. Whether some countries were empires at one point in time is still discussed amongst scholars, for example in the case of Germany, France, Japan, the Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark.
The following countries/cultures are widely accepted as having been (or still being) empires:
  1. Greece (especially Athens after the Persian Wars around the 5th century BC)
  2. Rome (especially under Gaius Julius Ceasar and Ceasar Augustus from 63 BC to 14 AD)
  3. China (esp. under the Han Dynasty from 202 BC to 220 AD)
  4. the Mongolian Empire during the 13th century AD
  5. the Russian Empire between 1551 and 1914
  6. the Ottoman Empire from the 14th century till 1683
  7. Spain and Portugal (especially in the 15th and 16th century, some say even until the 18th century)
  8. Britain in the 18th and 19th century
  9. the United States (especially since 1945, some say the whole 20th century)
The distinction between empire and hegemony and empire and imperialism is crucial here and sometimes it is not easy at all to draw the line.
 
More about definition of "Empire" (apologies if it's already been mentioned) but Germany after reunification was termed an Empire ( the Kaiser was also called an Emperor and as such outranked Queen Victoria , and she was hurriedly made Empress of India as a consequence)
Japan's Head of State has also been an Emperor as was the Chinese before communism.Empires aren't always external or overseas.
 
We don't have to "omit" the requirement "for an Emperor, Ruler or oligarchy", because there is no such requirement. You made it a requirement by using a false definition.
And by the way, a monarchy is not necessarily a form of an oligarchy. An oligarchy is defined by being a degenerate/deformed aristocracy, often a rule of a noble group or the nobility as a whole in the form of a dictatorship. A monarchy is defined by being a rule of one person or dynasty in any possible form, not giving any inclination towards the kind and quality of the rule.


Nobody was talking about "traditional empires". We were talking about "empires" per se. And the US is very well considered an empire. I don't know why you choose to repeatedly ignore what I said. I am a scholar of history and I studied empires in my research about the differences between Sparta and Athens and the differences between Rome and Carthage.
There are different definitions according to the subject matter. As there are for example different definitions of the term "war". There are "hot wars" like World War II and "cold wars" like the Cold War or there are the so called "big wars" like the third Gulf War (or second US-Iraqi war) and the so called "small wars" like what the US likes to call the "war on terror". But all of these terms have definitions and are bound to one superordinate definition of "war". It's the same thing with the term "empire". And the US, though not a "traditional empire" in the specific, narrow sense like Rome was for example, is very well a proper empire in the superordinate, broader sense like Russia was for example.

I assumed that you're biased because of the vocabulary you used. For example did you fail to acknowledge, that an empire can be ruled in the form of an aristocracy or a democracy. Instead you chose to stress the forms of rule that have mostly negative connotations in the US like "oligarchy". Also you refused to accept that per definition the US is an empire. You rather change the definition by making your opinion the definition over the scholarly stated definition.


I never said otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that English is universal today (not "British", mind you, and not 250 years ago) and far more people speak American English than British English. Considering that, by making this point once again, you jump to the "there wouldn't be America without Britain" point. But to stay true to your argument you would have to acknowledge that there probably wouldn't have been a British empire without the Roman empire or the Spanish empire before that. But that conclusion from your own point you refuse to make, because then you would have to admit that your seed/planter analogy defeats your own point.

While you are certainly right about the "we can never know", you are also wrong about the British colonizing the US. The North American continent was not colonized by the British. The British government snatched a large part of the area, that had already or was just being colonized, and put it under it's rule. There is a huge difference. That the British were the ones that started colonizing the area later known was the 13 states is a historical myth still propagated by many American school history textbooks today. There were British settlers, of course. But most of them settled there because they wanted to leave Britain. And there were settlers from many other countries and not to forget the Natives as well.


Again, you are the one repeatedly attacking the "seperate empires" approach with your seed/planter analogy, which just doesn't hold water in case of the US. The only part of the analogy that fits is the part where the planter is the motherland and the seed is the colony. But, as I said, you have to seperate "empire" from "imperialism". The seed has long outlived the planter.

I don't see where I have to win this discussion. First of all, I am a historian and thus belong to the ones that say that you have to look at empires seperately, and second of all, I repeatedly said that you have to seperate empires. So I don't know where you think you are finding fault in my argument.

And of course there is an US exceptionalism. The US itself promulgated this idea through it's politics and it's early historical writing (for example by George Bancroft) and thus has become a prime example for the "sense of mission" or the belief in the own exceptionalism many scholars of history attribute to empires or at least aspiring empires. ;)


I know the history of the US very well, thank you. ;) And I know that while forming the nation and it's constitution, the early Americans threw out more of the British antetype or model as you will than they kept. The separation of powers for example is a crucial point in which the American presidency and the English monarchy could hardly have been more different. But there is nothing to discuss about your point.
I wouldn't be the man I am today if it hadn't been for my father and the many things about him I swore I'd never emulate. Same thing goes for the US and Great Britain from almost 250 years ago to today. The US is not so much the US of today because of it's emulation of the great accomplishments in Great Britain (and there certainly have been great accomplishments like the Bill of Rights for example), but because it tried not to emulate the perceived mistakes, faults and flaws of the British system.

(Sighhhh) I suppose we can't begin to ration a discussion without some mutual agreement as to what some words and terms within the discussion mean.

I hate cutting a pasting definitions because I think it's pretty juvenile but in the interests of not wasting more posts debating definitions, I'll just post what I go by and why I believe what I believe then others may judge for themselves if what I post is an accurate representation or not.

em⋅pire  [em-pahyuhr; for 8–10 also om-peer]
–noun
1. a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.
2. a government under an emperor or empress.
3. (often initial capital letter) the historical period during which a nation is under such a government: a history of the second French empire.
4. supreme power in governing; imperial power; sovereignty: Austria's failure of empire in central Europe.
5. supreme control; absolute sway: passion's empire over the mind.
6. a powerful and important enterprise or holding of large scope that is controlled by a single person, family, or group of associates: The family's shipping empire was founded 50 years ago.
7. (initial capital letter) a variety of apple somewhat resembling the McIntosh.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empire

Oligarchy is a form of government where most political power effectively rests with a small segment of society (typically the most powerful, whether by wealth, military strength, ruthlessness, or political influence). The word oligarchy is from the Greek for "few" and "rule". Some political theorists have argued that all societies are inevitably oligarchies no matter the supposed political system.

Oligarchies are often controlled by a few powerful families whose children are raised and mentored to become inheritors of the power of the oligarchy, often at some sort of expense to those governed. In contrast to aristocracy ("government by the 'best'"), this power may not always be exercised openly, the oligarchs preferring to remain "the power behind the throne", exerting control through economic means.

You said a monarchy is not necessarily a oligarchy. :dunno: I said it's a form of an oligarchy...sounds like a distinction without a real difference. At least not enough to make it a point of contention IMO.

And while a monarchy suggests narrowly ruled by 1 person, it's fairly commonplace for family members to hold positions within it, such as with the British monarchy's queen, prince, princess, duke, dutchess, earl, countess, etc.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Oligarchy

The British have a monarchy but it could also be considered and oligarchy since the Magna Carta.

"An oligarchy is defined by being a degenerate/deformed aristocracy"
?? What's the basis for your definition of "empire" and "oligarchy"?
 
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Does it matter?



















There you have it, that's my contribution to this thread ..... ::dusts off hands in satisfaction::

Well done Blue .... well done. :hatsoff:
 
The US of today can be traced back to the early days of the British Empire , part of North America gained independence (whether they benefited from it is debatable) and became the embryonic United States.It took its laws lock stock and barrel from Britain,modelled the powers of the President on those of the King and embodied ideas of freedom which although assumed in Britain were never formalised there.Without its British foundation there would certainly be a peoples occupying the landmass , maybe even French speaking but it wouldn't be the USA as we know it.

I certainly disagree with the influence of British culture on the embryonic stage of America. Look at how the US Congress works compared with the Paliament, how the US Election works compared with the British.

United States influence on the world actually is a result of the immigration of European settlled into US in different stages and culminated after the second world war. The immigrants of European decents contributed to the greatness of America today. British's influence is "nil" except may be the British gals and war brides that came along to America ! LOL !!!!:nanner::hatsoff::rolleyes:
 
UK lost Ireland, lost all the control of Canada, Australia, and even South Africa can not claim to be a true British Commonwealth.
All empires come to an end, sadly the sun has now set on the British Empire. But we had the most influential/powerful Empire. Fact. 100% true. Which is the question.

This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands, -
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this ENGLAND!
 
UK lost Ireland, lost all the control of Canada, Australia, and even South Africa can not claim to be a true British Commonwealth.

Lost i would call that a gain
 
I hate cutting a pasting definitions because I think it's pretty juvenile but in the interests of not wasting more posts debating definitions, I'll just post what I go by and why I believe what I believe then others may judge for themselves if what I post is an accurate representation or not.

em⋅pire  [em-pahyuhr; for 8–10 also om-peer]
–noun
1. a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.
2. a government under an emperor or empress.
3. (often initial capital letter) the historical period during which a nation is under such a government: a history of the second French empire.
4. supreme power in governing; imperial power; sovereignty: Austria's failure of empire in central Europe.
5. supreme control; absolute sway: passion's empire over the mind.
6. a powerful and important enterprise or holding of large scope that is controlled by a single person, family, or group of associates: The family's shipping empire was founded 50 years ago.
7. (initial capital letter) a variety of apple somewhat resembling the McIntosh.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empire

Oligarchy is a form of government where most political power effectively rests with a small segment of society (typically the most powerful, whether by wealth, military strength, ruthlessness, or political influence). The word oligarchy is from the Greek for "few" and "rule". Some political theorists have argued that all societies are inevitably oligarchies no matter the supposed political system.

Oligarchies are often controlled by a few powerful families whose children are raised and mentored to become inheritors of the power of the oligarchy, often at some sort of expense to those governed. In contrast to aristocracy ("government by the 'best'"), this power may not always be exercised openly, the oligarchs preferring to remain "the power behind the throne", exerting control through economic means.

You said a monarchy is not necessarily a oligarchy. :dunno: I said it's a form of an oligarchy...sounds like a distinction without a real difference. At least not enough to make it a point of contention IMO.

And while a monarchy suggests narrowly ruled by 1 person, it's fairly commonplace for family members to hold positions within it, such as with the British monarchy's queen, prince, princess, duke, dutchess, earl, countess, etc.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Oligarchy

The British have a monarchy but it could also be considered and oligarchy since the Magna Carta.

?? What's the basis for your definition of "empire" and "oligarchy"?

Honestly, I'm getting pretty tired of this discussion. I've invested half of my spare time the last two days following this thread. ;) I got a pretty big workload and FreeOnes is supposed to be part of my time off.
No offense, Hot Mega, but I discuss definitions, phrases, meanings almost every day. My basis for the definition of "empire" and "oligarchy" are years of studying and research. That's why I'm giving you all this information from the top of my head without having to quote an online dictionary. The definition of "empire" according to the first two points of this online dictionary is incomplete (another reason why I don't quote online dictionaries). I gave you several authors and scholars that stated accurate definitions. If you really want to know and not just stubbornly win a discussion on the internet, read their works. Most of them are really interesting.

But to give you at least some answer: Even though an empire can be a kingdom or a Kaiserreich, not every empire is. And even though a kingdom can theoretically be an oligarchy not every kingdom is. The quality of the rule or the distribution and separation of power are only two of the things that are important here. Japan for example always was (and still is) a monarchy, but in times of the Shogunat or the Shadow Emperors it also was a certain form of oligarchy, in times of the rule of the Tennô it was a form of absolute monarchy (like the French Absolutism) and today it is a democracy. Does it still sound "like a distinction without a real difference"?
The description of oligarchy you quoted is a wild mixture of parts of definitions from Aristotle and 17th/18th century scholars. Theo Stammen and Eckard Jesse for example have given accurate, modern definitions of the term including and discussing older descriptions and meanings. Why don't you give them a try?

And the process of making and adjusting definitions is not juvenile, it's called science. Talking about something like you own the topic and not allowing the facts to dictate the topic is juvenile.

Don't feel patronized here, but that's about all I want to say about this topic now. You can PM me anytime and I'll gladly give you my number or my e-mail address, so that you can contact me and I can give you all the information you want. But I'm not gonna type down years of research here. I'm gonna spend the little free time I got left before I have to go to bed with watching the new episode of True Blood, trolling around a bit in the Funny Pictures section and looking at some Teagan Presley without starting to drool. :D

And BlueBalls, you malicious troll, come around again and viciously destroy the flow of this thread and I'm gonna slap your wrist with a frying pan! :D
 
And BlueBalls, you malicious troll, come around again and viciously destroy the flow of this thread and I'm gonna slap your wrist with a frying pan! :D

Oooh ... I'm getting a little turned on here Shindekudasai :lovecoupl . You better not be lying about that.

Punish me!!!! :moon:
 
Oooh ... I'm getting a little turned on here Shindekudasai :lovecoupl . You better not be lying about that.

Punish me!!!! :moon:

Ok, that's it!

....but, well, you managed to spell my name right this time...so I'm in a good mood and gonna let you off the hook...








But then again....naaah! Take this! :D
 
Honestly, I'm getting pretty tired of this discussion. I've invested half of my spare time the last two days following this thread. ;) I got a pretty big workload and FreeOnes is supposed to be part of my time off.
No offense, Hot Mega, but I discuss definitions, phrases, meanings almost every day. My basis for the definition of "empire" and "oligarchy" are years of studying and research. That's why I'm giving you all this information from the top of my head without having to quote an online dictionary. The definition of "empire" according to the first two points of this online dictionary is incomplete (another reason why I don't quote online dictionaries). I gave you several authors and scholars that stated accurate definitions. If you really want to know and not just stubbornly win a discussion on the internet, read their works. Most of them are really interesting.

But to give you at least some answer: Even though an empire can be a kingdom or a Kaiserreich, not every empire is. And even though a kingdom can theoretically be an oligarchy not every kingdom is. The quality of the rule or the distribution and separation of power are only two of the things that are important here. Japan for example always was (and still is) a monarchy, but in times of the Shogunat or the Shadow Emperors it also was a certain form of oligarchy, in times of the rule of the Tennô it was a form of absolute monarchy (like the French Absolutism) and today it is a democracy. Does it still sound "like a distinction without a real difference"?
The description of oligarchy you quoted is a wild mixture of parts of definitions from Aristotle and 17th/18th century scholars. Theo Stammen and Eckard Jesse for example have given accurate, modern definitions of the term including and discussing older descriptions and meanings. Why don't you give them a try?

And the process of making and adjusting definitions is not juvenile, it's called science. Talking about something like you own the topic and not allowing the facts to dictate the topic is juvenile.

Don't feel patronized here, but that's about all I want to say about this topic now. You can PM me anytime and I'll gladly give you my number or my e-mail address, so that you can contact me and I can give you all the information you want. But I'm not gonna type down years of research here. I'm gonna spend the little free time I got left before I have to go to bed with watching the new episode of True Blood, trolling around a bit in the Funny Pictures section and looking at some Teagan Presley without starting to drool. :D

And BlueBalls, you malicious troll, come around again and viciously destroy the flow of this thread and I'm gonna slap your wrist with a frying pan! :D

With all due respect I don't need any additional information about "empires", "oligarchies", monarchies, plutocracies nor any other "...ocracies". I have more than enough learned information myself to sensibly and reasonably offer an opinion on the question asked and support it with what I believe reasonably makes my case.

I don't need to refer to dictionaries to understand the meaning and traditional uses of fairly common words like "empire". You believed my use was inconsistent with the definition. I posted the definition of what I already knew to be true to refute your assertion and so that others may judge. You're apparently a lexicographer too with your own dictionary as you derive meanings from words not consistent with their traditional meanings and uses. I owe all I know from practical and professional life experience, formal education, an outgoing, adventurous lifestyle based on constant challenge, attaining knowledge and common sense. With all that, I confess to not being good enough to assign meanings to words different from the way lexicographers have them defined.

There are many different ways the word "empire" is used from referring to an individual's personal wealth and assets to a persons status in an industry. In the context of the OP's question, I don't believe the US qualifies as one (yet). There is no evidence or consideration of the US ever having been one aside from a the Empire State building and a few goofy neocons trying to promulgate an agenda.

That said, I stand by my assertion, rationale and opinion that the British Empire was the most influential in human history.
 
I certainly disagree with the influence of British culture on the embryonic stage of America. Look at how the US Congress works compared with the Paliament, how the US Election works compared with the British.

United States influence on the world actually is a result of the immigration of European settlled into US in different stages and culminated after the second world war. The immigrants of European decents contributed to the greatness of America today. British's influence is "nil" except may be the British gals and war brides that came along to America ! LOL !!!!:nanner::hatsoff::rolleyes:

Really? The House of Commons became the House of Representatives , the House of Lords became the Senate and the King became the President.A similar set up with a lawmaking assembly , a revising chamber and a Head of State.The difference is in the detail.
The settlers in America were British or descendants of them.Some had gone to find religious freedom (though only Catholics had a real problem at home and few of them emigrated) but many others went for economic reasons or even as parts of business enterprises.Many still considered themselves as Btitish living away from home (this feeling was commonly found in Australia and Canada until 1914) and kept the ideas of being free people with free speech.So after independence the thinking was always going to be on the British pattern based on freedom.Though unlike in Britain where slavery was already illegal freedom wasn't quite universal.
America's influence was gradual but many changes had already come about (industrialisation, mechanisation,insurance,mass transport) , the changes brought by the US are cultural (Hollywood , fast food etc) and advances in such things as computing (where much of the groundwork and the first electronic computers came from Britain anyway) and in particular in communications though Alexander Graham Bell was Scottish.The question is-has America CHANGED the world in any significant way like the British did?
 
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