Unreported Innocent Iraqi Civilian Casualties

[Roughneck]

(responding against my better judgement):

Dick van Cock: ********** doesn't hate US soldiers. He just calls us "murderers".

Exactly. Exactly. That's why I don't blame the terrorist or the soldier per se. But you can't out it down to the government 100%... people really believe all their crap... and do their bidding. You have to be at least a little bit responsible for your own actions, even as a sworn soldier. You're still the man or woman that pulls that trigger and kills the enemy.

So easy for you to say when it isn't your ass on the line playing "Kill or be killed"...

cheers,

 

[blakey]

i'm not wanting to get into the whole "either anti-islam or anti-usa" choice here but i've just got a couple of wee observations

The difference is:

Any US soldier committing an atrocity will be held accountable by a court martial. :

- well hopefully they will, if they're caught or someone grasses them up (which might not happen - the whole purpose of this thread i thought )

The al-Qaeda terrorist will be hailed as a martyr.

- the west, coalition, us or whatever you want to call it also seeks to have its martyrs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6588611.stm

even when the facts have to be somewhat distorted to serve a public relations < i won't use the word propaganda > purpose



- i'm not trying to disrespect anyone in the military or whatever, i've had family in there too, just posting to try to reflect that there are two sides or view points (at least ) that need to be considered when reflecting on any conflict or argument

 

[Ax3C]

Exactly. Exactly. That's why I don't blame the terrorist or the soldier per se. But you can't out it down to the government 100%... people really believe all their crap... and do their bidding. You have to be at least a little bit responsible for your own actions, even as a sworn soldier. You're still the man or woman that pulls that trigger and kills the enemy.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask a question that merits an honest answer, Fox.

You live in my country as a legal alien / resident, I presume ... true or false? You're also a legal resident of the United Kingdom, correct?

Okay.

As a Marine first and foremost, let me address your shitty comments about my fellow soldiers and Marines ...

WE ARE A VOLUNTEER MILITARY THAT OFTEN WORKS AT WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY POVERTY-LEVEL INCOME. Our young men and women who choose to take the oath of service to THIS country often are individuals who want to give back to their country what has been given to them: i.e., freedom. Some are patriots, some are those who have a deep, abiding love for all that the United States represents, some are unemployed and unsure of where they're going in life, some have no other desire than to get a free ride off of the government, some are criminals. MOST, however, are ordinary, every-day KIDS straight out of high school who have NO FUCKING CLUE about today's political climate or even care about idealogies.

For you, Fox, a legal (I presume, obviously) resident of MY country to sit here and call me and my brothers and sisters MURDERERS really fucking makes my goddamned asshole pucker. Where in the FUCK do you get off???

YOU reap the benefits of what me and my brothers and sisters have sacrificed to ensure what we all have in this country: FREEDOM.

Let me ask you something, man:

Have you ever seen a mutilated body up close? The lower half of a face missing; an arm amputated by a grenade or a homemade dirty bomb? Have you ever seen or felt someone's brain matter splattered in every known fucking direction as their head is literally exploded open by the force of a bullet??? Have you ever witnessed your bunk-mate being blown apart by a homemade mine buried in the sand?

Have you ever - fucking ever - felt what it's like to be shot or shot at?

For your sake, I hope not. I really do.

Me and my brothers and sisters put on that uniform and grab up that rifle and say that oath because we want to give back what was given us to, sir ... FREEDOM.

We want to make sure that democracy and the principles for which this country stands continue and are never violated by anyone, domestic or international. We do it for people like you and all the other whiny, bitchy, ungrateful motherfuckers like you so that you CAN have the freedom to say what you want to say and do what you want to do and go where you want to go and worship whatever fucking deity you want to worship.

We do it simply because someone has to do it. And better that we, the patriots of our beautiful, wonderful country, do it than some snide, simpering, liberalistic shit-for-brains do it ... we wouldn't last the rest of the day if that were the case.

To quote the character of Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men:

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

When you go to bed tonight, Fox, I want you to fucking lie there and think just how goddamned fucking fortunate you are that you live in an AMERICAN society that gives you the motherfucking freedom to sit here on this fucking board and call me - and others like me - raBID, uneducated, bigoted RAPISTS AND MURDERERS.

And then, after you do that, you can kiss my motherfucking (expletive deleted) TWICE ... once for each cheek, buddy.

MARINE CORPS!!! SEMPER FIDELIS!!!

 

[Roughneck]

But the difference is

Just what I thought...

Well genius, you walked outta that one by saying "I'd never sign up".

Ever stop and think "Well, what about the poor blokes who already have?"

Nope. Never thought of that didja? Never stopped you from callin' 'em "murderers" (and it still don't).

Nah. You ain't worth my time Fox.

Like I said earlier - "against my better judgement".
I'm outta here...

cheers,

 

[Philbert]

Ax3C, roughneck...

Well said...truth and emotion together in one post!
There isn't a chance of honesty rearing it's ugly head...statements like " But isn't dropping a bomb on a city of people as barbaric as blowing up a bus full of people with a backpack? And those bombings are legal. The Iraqi civilian death toll is high enough now for us to stop pretending that we do not fire at or bomb civilians" require a blending of truth and exaggeration that sound good but ultimately tell a lie.
We could flatten city after city anywhere we wanted, and yet we use billions of Dollars building precise weaponry that takes out a target without the entire block it sits on. What is Hamas and Hezbollah's strategy? Send missle after missle into strictly civillian areas to kill grannies, Moms and Pops, children and anyone living in the homes they target.
They have the money and weapons support from Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other sources to field as sophisticated a weapons system as they want. But...
they choose to attack the heart of the enemy, our families, our non combatants, our soft targets.
Why? Well, because they are a morally bankrupt culture...it's OK to kill for any sanctioned reason...kill any Christian or Jew for any reason, or just the reason that they aren't Islamic.
No airliner is a non target, no Sunni is exempt from Shi'ite killing, or Shi'ite exempt from Sunni killing...busses are ok, 3 year olds are great targets...we, the West and most non Islamic Eastern cultures find this unacceptable.
When it comes to killing weapons, we try our best to aim them away from civillians and at the military targets. Even when the wily enemy uses our moral strength against us, putting weapons where we will have to kill non-combatants to get to our attackers, we try to use precise weapons to avoid casualties. Killing is not a weapon we prefer to use, destruction is our weapon of choice in the 21st Century.
We will fight harder the more often we are outraged, not lose heart.
True, Fox wants to look compassionate when he claims all killing is wrong...but I'll bet his attitude is a pick and choose one.
No leather? No meat? No use of materials that are produced from killing? I doubt it...selective belief is more likely. And if it's ok to kill for lunch, or good boots, why is it wrong to kill to save your family and way of life from real time destruction?
Answer: it isn't. Killing with a purpose is part of life...we who try to keep compassion in our hearts want death to be restricted to as few and as rare occurances as possible. This is the basis to modern warfare in the modern world...death and horror are avoided whenever possible, prefering to use assured destruction. No electricity and no automobiles are worse to a culture than civillian deaths.
Islamic radicals are willing to spend the lives of their babies to make a point...from Israel to Lebanon we see no limits as to who will kill who.
We bomb civillians? There wouldn't be any civillians left now if this was so.
Say what you will...The day we decided to be "just like AlQueda" we would have a short time before we were the only ones left standing.
And the Brit, US, and other modern fighting forces take the hard road to victory, not using the simple method of destroying everyone and everything to win;Semper Fidelis indeed!
:thumbsup:

 

[blakey]

First off "they are a morally bankrupt culture" outlines the exact problem here. That is what you think of them, them all, their entire way of life, blanket statement, end of story.

i've got to agree on that point fox- imo statements like "they are a morally bankrupt culture" aren't helpful
- and there's surely a hint of irony in the fact that anti-American propaganda used by islamic fundamentalists likes to portray the US as a "morally bankrupt culture":dunno:

 

[Togath]

Onca again I would like to make a post, and once again Fox is in here ruining it. I am half tempted to start a thread asking for a perminant ban on fox.

 

[max0rz]

Onca again I would like to make a post, and once again Fox is in here ruining it. I am half tempted to start a thread asking for a perminant ban on fox.

can't see how exactly he's ruining it :dunno:

 

[Togath]

Well maxors, once you have been here for a couple of years you will see how fox trashes america and its soldiers. But oh woo to thee if you trash back at fox, you'll get banned.

 

[blakey]

Onca again I would like to make a post, and once again Fox is in here ruining it. I am half tempted to start a thread asking for a perminant ban on fox.

get a grip, man - are you wanting to censor another member because you don't agree with his posts :crying:

i thought one thing we could've all agreed on would've been the right to free speach on Freeones
< within the established rules, of course >

i don't agree with everything i read on every thread, and plenty of folks don't agree with all i say, but i try not to let these things get to me too much - i'm sure we've all got bigger things to worry about in the real world

 

[Togath]

Fox, lets just put it this way, every time I have debated with you, you spew out things that have no basis and you dont provide any back up. All you do is continue to post things till the other person realises how dumb it is arguing with you. I once made a post in a machavelian style. You were too ignorant to understand it and I almost got banned because of it. I dont post on freeones much any more because I find that you come in bashing alot of people and ideas. Those same people who try and do it back to your beliefes usually get warned not to do it.

Now if I had a "white pride" sticker on my car would you be the guy who would come up and accuse me of being racist because I had a white pride slogan, even though I am just making a comment of being proud I am white, and that it has nothing against any other race or ethinicity? I think you would automatically assume I was racist. Your are the narrow minded liberal type who would assume that.

 

[Togath]

get a grip, man - are you wanting to censor another member because you don't agree with his posts :crying:

i thought one thing we could've all agreed on would've been the right to free speach on Freeones
< within the established rules, of course >

i don't agree with everything i read on every thread, and plenty of folks don't agree with all i say, but i try not to let these things get to me too much - i'm sure we've all got bigger things to worry about in the real world

What? Now I am getting attacked for having an idea of maybe making a petition to have someone banned? Is'nt that my right to do so? Or is it because I am a white guy who supports the military?

 

[Togath]

I guess what the problem truely is is this. I will come into to freeones Talk. Someone will post something about some atrocity out in the world. Most people will post how awful that is, a few idiots will postall right kill them all. Then fox usually steps in and says "its the americans fault and the people in the u.s. military are murderer's" Thats basically all fox does for a post. Never backing them up with and hard fact. Fox then gets a thread hi-jacked into making the u.s. military look bad. Making those few guys on here that are in the service, and who do want to look at boobies cause all they get to look at is sand, all wound up by his dietride of uneducated and founded post spewing. No I think knowledge is great, and it is great that someone post's horrible stuff that goes on in the world on here. Just so some of us can know more then who won the local sports game from the nightly news. What I dont like is how fox always blames the worlds probloems on america and it's soldiers. It's a pitty that people who dont really watch what fox has done stand up for this person.

 

[blakey]

What? Now I am getting attacked for having an idea of maybe making a petition to have someone banned? Is'nt that my right to do so? Or is it because I am a white guy who supports the military?

Whatever man - i'm just suggesting you chillax a bit but you can post whatever you want, that was kinda the point of my previous post

by the way, i'm white too - and i support the ( uk, nato coalition or whatever ) military at least most of the time,
i was actually probably 55/45 in favour of the Iraq war at the time < somebody mentioned something back then about saddam having wmds >


p.s. "narrow minded liberal" is an oxymoron

 

[Togath]

Look Blakely, I have nothing against you or most anything else in the world. It's just that fox has ran a few people off or has ruined posting on here for quite a few people. I have sent pm's to other people over the years when they have fox hi0jack thier thread and bash them. I usually tell them" hay man dont worry about it, just quit arguing with fox and let it drop" "They usually replie, I guess your right it's just fox makes me mad and bashes the U.S. so much. He never back's any of his statments up with any fact's" I usually pm back again saying "yeah tahst usually how it goes". I then never see that member post again. Like me I usually dont post in freeones talk on political issue's because fox always makes some political post turn into anti-american rhetoric. I am just sick of it is all.

p.s. narrow minded liberal is a term me and some of my friends have come up with for the new generation of kids that dont have a clue to how the world turns. And yes it is an oxymoron, because those are the same kids who scream "save the world", but have grown up being driven in suv's and they want suv's.

 

[Perilypos]

...Because the swastika in itself may not be racist, but it has come to be known to represent certain values. And a white power sticker has come to be known to represent those same values, I'm sorry to say. It doesn't mean everyone who has one is a fascist...

Just a marginal note (off the main topic, sorry):

Swastika has absolutely nothing to do with fascism. It is an old Indo-Iranian symbol, widely used in Hinduism and Buddhism and grabbed by Nazis (not by Fascists) to demonstrate their Indo-Arian origin, while Fascists used fasces (the bundle of rods with an axe) as their symbol, originally the symbol of the ancient Roman lictors, who had served as safe-guards of Roman magistrates.

 

[Perilypos]

Oh, no, Fox, my point wasn't about swastika itself. My point is that in modern decades it has connotations of nazism (national socialism) and not of fascism, which is a different ideology with completely different symbols. Re-read my post and the part of your post I quoted, please, to understand what I mean.

 

[Togath]

Once again Fox your putting things out there that you dont back up with any facts. You have been to 40 some countries and almost all the states and study in the U.K. and your only 26? What do you have a hidden teleport machine non of us know about? Do you have some superior mental abilities that allow you dematerialise your molecules and reconstruct them in another place instantaneously? For all that traveling, and all that studying you must either be really smart to get scholarships, or have alot of money. Because trust me, I have been all over western europe and it cost me a butt load of money to do. But, I guess you didnt have the money because you mom was a drunk mental patient on welfare. So you must have gotten a scholarship to study at Oxford. But, if you were studying at Oxford, where did you find the time to go to 40 different countries? Personally I went through the military, got the g.i. bill I paid into and funded my own college education. Let me tell you, I had no time for travel while I was in college, hell my spring breaks were used to do papers and study for mid-terms.

 

[blakey]

Look Blakely, I have nothing against you or most anything else in the world. ...
And yes it is an oxymoron, because those are the same kids who scream "save the world", but have grown up being driven in suv's and they want suv's.

Cool - in any case i'm not going to get into any disgreements with you on this, it's not to do with me and has a back story etc & we're well off the thread topic
& i now see there's a bit of irony in your use of "narrow minded liberal"
:angels:

 

[Roughneck]

p.s. "narrow minded liberal" is an oxymoron

Nothing "oxymoronic" about it given our present day political germain...

... of course, you would not have said that if you understood the "real" meaning of the term "liberal" as applied to historical contexts.


cheers,