Southern whites who know basic facts about the Civil War don’t support the Confederate flag

[MMMariah]

Here is the source of the article

Supporters of displaying the Confederate battle flag in public places like South Carolina's state house often argue that it's about "heritage, not hate." But as political scientists Spencer Piston and Logan Strother write for the Washington Post's Monkey Cage blog, there is actual data measuring how Confederate flag supporters and opponents each feel about the South and its history. And, frankly, it doesn't look good for the "heritage, not hate" argument.

In 2004, the Survey Research Laboratory at Georgia State University surveyed 522 white Georgia residents about a version of the Georgia state flag that included the Confederate battle flag. (This was the official Georgia state flag until 2001; in 2004, there was a referendum in which Georgia voters could vote for it to be reinstated.) And they found Confederate flag supporters didn't know much about the actual Confederacy.

The survey asked three questions about the Civil War — identifying Union general William Tecumseh Sherman, who famously burned his way through the state, and naming any two Civil War battles. A third of people who got all three questions right supported keeping the Confederate battle flag on the Georgia flag. Three quarters of those who got none of them right did. (This wasn't just because less-educated Georgians were more likely to support the Confederate flag, either; the researchers controlled for education level and income, and there was still a correlation between liking the Confederate flag more and knowing less about the war.)

So, how about the hate side of the equation? More bad news for the "heritage, not hate" slogan. Confederate flag supporters were much more likely to oppose interracial dating, and to believe that African Americans aren't discriminated against for jobs, than opponents were.

Supporters of the Confederate flag were more likely to say that they "felt close to other Southerners" — which is some evidence for the heritage side of the equation. But to make sure that feeling "close to other Southerners" wasn't a euphemism for disliking black Southerners, the researchers took a second look controlling for anti-black attitudes. When racism was accounted for, someone who supported the Confederate battle flag wasn't any more likely to say he felt close to other Southerners than someone who opposed it.

As the researchers point out in the Post, this is an 11-year-old survey here. It may not reflect the debate in 2015. But then again, Confederate flag supporters were saying it was about "heritage, not hate" then too.

CORRECTION: This article originally said that the Georgia state flag incorporating the Confederate battle flag was being used in 2004. It had been replaced in 2001. In 2004, there was a referendum that would have reinstated it.

 

[assari]

None of my business, but that flag is part of history of your country.

Is it ok for you if it would display at the museums?

 

[MMMariah]

I am all for freedom in this country, but to fly a flag that stands for racial superiority to many people on government property isn't right. Fly it anywhere you want as long as it isn't on government property. That is essentially the government backing the racist agenda. Yes I know many will say its not purely racial but what, other than the loss of ability to own slaves, did the south lose in the civil war?

Rednecks fly that flag and it stands 100% for the south that owned slaves. pure and simple

 

[Ovidius]

All the grievances that actually led to the civil war has been addressed since. You should know that slavery was not an issue when the war started, but became one during the war. And anyway, since slavery has not place in a modern industrialized society it is an irrelevant question today. At least among educated persons.

The questions that sparked the war was, as always, about taxation and trade policy. The south contributed an unfairly high proportion of the taxes and were hurt by the protectionist trade policies that the industrializing north imposed to protect in nascent industries. Today the formerly confederated states are net recipients of federal funds and free trade has more or less been reinstated. So, 150 years later, we can see that the South has gotten all it wanted back in the 1850s without having had to break the union.

So why should an educated Southerner wave around an antiquated Confederate flag? That is for losers like Dylann Roof.

 

[MMMariah]

Nicely said. But sadly there is a large number of uneducated southerners who think the flag stands for white supremacy and fly it proudly with this intention.

 

[Ovidius]

Nicely said. But sadly there is a large number of uneducated southerners who think the flag stands for white supremacy and fly it proudly with this intention.

Yes, stupid uneducated losers. If we look at the history of slavery, or at least its demise, we see that slavery ended as the middle and lower classes gained the vote. In 1832 parliamentary reforms were implemented in England (the Reform Act), and in 1833 slavery was outlawed. In the northern states of the USA slavery was abolished earlier than in the South, and it is my understanding that labor was more organized in the north (industry has that effect) and that the northern part was a tad more democratic. Labor, and certainly blue collar labor, has always understood that slavery has been a way to keep its wages down and concentrate power and wealth into the pockets of the oligarchy. Thus, witness the inequality in the south and the poverty widespread also among White people. Negro slavery was also a way to oppress local poor White people.

If U.S. schools actually did their job and gave the kids a decent education... well. But then the NAACP would throw a fit because that would not mix well with the story they are spinning.

So, if Dylann Roof as a poor white person from the South supports slavery he must have a larger hole in his head than he put in any of those poor people in that church. But then a high-school dropout who had the repeat 9th grade and quit school to spend his time playing video games and doing drugs does not strike me as one of the sharper tools in the drawer. At least he should have picked a better symbol.

 

[feller469]

If U.S. schools actually did their job and gave the kids a decent education...

So you are saying that teachers aren't providing the kids a chance? We have a society that does not value education. Education starts at home and too many stupid people are producing stupid kids. The kids that want an education, get one.

 

[Jagger69]

You should know that slavery was not an issue when the war started, but became one during the war. And anyway, since slavery has not place in a modern industrialized society it is an irrelevant question today. At least among educated persons.

Very insightful post. Slavery was not the central issue when the war began (in fact, never was until Lincoln made it so with the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation) but it had unquestionably been a huge part of the backdrop that led to the war in the first place. One can go all the way back to the Missouri Compromise of 1820 to observe its divisive influence in the growing differences between a rapidly-industrializing north and a sedentary agrarian south and all the fiscal and political trappings that came with those differences. Slavery was just the salt in the wound.

However, the slavery aspect of our nation prior to the Civil War is especially vivid for me personally since I not only had direct descendants who fought for the Confederacy (my great-great grandfather held a captain's commission in the 5th Alabama Cavalry, Company A, Reeves Battalion) but also some who owned slaves. That's not a heritage for which I am proud and, although I certainly would defend anyone's individual right to fly the stars and bars of their own volition on their own property, I personally would never choose to join them....nor do I think it appropriate for it to be flown in public or government places under any circumstances. How or why there would be any controversy about this truly baffles me.

The appropriateness of the removal of the confederate flag from the statehouse grounds in SC becomes crystal clear to me when I look into the faces of my beautiful biracial grandchildren and realize that my great-great grandfather had dedicated himself to battle in order that they would remain enslaved yet today.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

The Confederate Battle Flag is a god damned American treasure!


















I'm just going to let that sit there and you can ponder the irony.

 

[Will E Worm]

Southern whites who know basic facts about the Civil War don’t support the Confederate flag

Most people don't know history. Also, liberals need to leave.

 

[Jack Davenport]

Here is the source of the article

Supporters of displaying the Confederate battle flag in public places like South Carolina's state house often argue that it's about "heritage, not hate." But as political scientists Spencer Piston and Logan Strother write for the Washington Post's Monkey Cage blog, there is actual data measuring how Confederate flag supporters and opponents each feel about the South and its history. And, frankly, it doesn't look good for the "heritage, not hate" argument.

In 2004, the Survey Research Laboratory at Georgia State University surveyed 522 white Georgia residents about a version of the Georgia state flag that included the Confederate battle flag. (This was the official Georgia state flag until 2001; in 2004, there was a referendum in which Georgia voters could vote for it to be reinstated.) And they found Confederate flag supporters didn't know much about the actual Confederacy.

The survey asked three questions about the Civil War — identifying Union general William Tecumseh Sherman, who famously burned his way through the state, and naming any two Civil War battles. A third of people who got all three questions right supported keeping the Confederate battle flag on the Georgia flag. Three quarters of those who got none of them right did. (This wasn't just because less-educated Georgians were more likely to support the Confederate flag, either; the researchers controlled for education level and income, and there was still a correlation between liking the Confederate flag more and knowing less about the war.)

So, how about the hate side of the equation? More bad news for the "heritage, not hate" slogan. Confederate flag supporters were much more likely to oppose interracial dating, and to believe that African Americans aren't discriminated against for jobs, than opponents were.

Supporters of the Confederate flag were more likely to say that they "felt close to other Southerners" — which is some evidence for the heritage side of the equation. But to make sure that feeling "close to other Southerners" wasn't a euphemism for disliking black Southerners, the researchers took a second look controlling for anti-black attitudes. When racism was accounted for, someone who supported the Confederate battle flag wasn't any more likely to say he felt close to other Southerners than someone who opposed it.

As the researchers point out in the Post, this is an 11-year-old survey here. It may not reflect the debate in 2015. But then again, Confederate flag supporters were saying it was about "heritage, not hate" then too.

CORRECTION: This article originally said that the Georgia state flag incorporating the Confederate battle flag was being used in 2004. It had been replaced in 2001. In 2004, there was a referendum that would have reinstated it.

While that article may have some valid points, it is also true that a study like this could be performed with those that hold liberal ideals near and dear and the results will find that that they are just as uninformed about their views and hold onto them because they are emotionally attached to the issue.. Which basically makes this post a circle jerk

 

[MMMariah]

Yes you must twist it around to turn it away from the actual topic. Maybe you really are an attorney. This is a valid point. The people defending the flad don't even know what it really stands for. I don't think it only stands for owning slaves, but many many of the people who fly it do.

 

[Jack Davenport]

Twisting arguments is what I do. I could get caught cheating on my wife and in 10 minutes have her apologizing for making me stray.

 

[Chopper3000]

You probably only have to go back 15-20 years in the UK to find displaying the Union flag or the St. George's Cross was deemed racist or at least frowned upon. This being our own fucking national flags! Thankfully we now take pride in our bearing our flags rather than stupid idiots telling us otherwise. I will also add the Scottish saltire looks shit along with the Welsh dragon and bog trotter tricolour

 

[Ovidius]

Yes you must twist it around to turn it away from the actual topic. Maybe you really are an attorney. This is a valid point. The people defending the flad don't even know what it really stands for. I don't think it only stands for owning slaves, but many many of the people who fly it do.

I would say that a symbol means to a person what that person sees, or chooses to see, in that symbol. It would be untrue to say that the Confederate flag means today what it meant when the first shorts were fired at Fort Sumter. The fact that such a great proportion of the Southern population rallied around that flag---i.e. many intelligent and good persons---means that the states that broke away and formed the CSA must have had legitimate grievances.

We can't expect obvious retards like Roof to have an accurate understanding of what a symbol like that actually means, or have meant. Instead I think that Dylann Roof, and the people like him, have filled the flag with the meaning they were looking for.

And regarding slavery, I think that even with a decisive Confederate victory slavery would not have made in into the 20th century.

 

[MMMariah]

If you enslaved an entire race of people and then oppressed the shit outta them for another century and the flag offends them, take it down. Period. Its time to stop being this defiant bullshit country that says we should never apologize to anyone and fly a flag that stands for racism to MANY people in the faces of those very people. Its unfair and does ZERO to advance our culture or our country. They say they can't understand why blacks hate cops, well when confederate flags fly on government property that doesn't help that situation. Taking it down is the decent thing to do. The christian thing to do. Oh wait, the bible was pro-slavery. Never mind that.

Just the fact that so many on the right are defending it just as they do with every cop shooting black men in the back or choking them to death or shooting them when they're unarmed before the story even breaks says that we have a loooooooong way to go before ANYONE can declare that racism is dead in the US and especially in the republican party.

 

[Rey C.]

Since the brouhaha over "the flag" has kicked up, and with even people like Dale Earnhardt, Jr. dismissing it as an offensive symbol of the past, I've noticed certain types of people going out of their way to display it. And I believe that is their right. You can fly a Mexican flag, a Swastika or an Israeli flag on your property, if you want to. I believe in private property rights, as well as freedom of expression and speech. But the Confederate flag basically made its public/state sponsored reappearance during the late Jim Crow era in the South, and especially when desegregation was being introduced. But the flag of rebellion and treason (in my republican opinion) should have never been allowed on state or public grounds.

What I find interesting (and rather sad) about this whole episode now is that many of the lower social and economic class people, who are still clinging to the [NOBABE]rebel[/NOBABE] flag, would also claim to be red, white & blue to the core. That strikes me as odd because I've never seen an American flag flying outside any of the trailer parks where I now notice recent unfurlings of the stars & bars. It's most important to people who have little or nothing. All they have is this imagery of the past, when their great, great grand-pappy was a (make believe) cavalry general, fighting right beside Robert E. Lee. I've always thought that's probably why the South lost the war: going by the stories told by Sons of Confederate Veterans members I've met at gun shows, hell, there were no privates or enlisted men - they were ALL freakin' officers of at least captain rank. I guess imagery and fantasy is all they have left though. I have never seen a Confederate flag flying in front of a $500K+ house. I've never seen a Confederate flag sticker on a Mercedes or a Jaguar... or even a (new) Cadillac. So if it makes them happy, hell, leave the poor bastards alone. Taking that flag away from them would be like taking the last piece of moldy cheese away from a starving rat.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Since the brouhaha over "the flag" has kicked up, and with even people like Dale Earnhardt, Jr. dismissing it as an offensive symbol of the past, I've noticed certain types of people going out of their way to display it. And I believe that is their right. You can fly a Mexican flag, a Swastika or an Israeli flag on your property, if you want to. I believe in private property rights, as well as freedom of expression and speech. But the Confederate flag basically made its public/state sponsored reappearance during the late Jim Crow era in the South, and especially when desegregation was being introduced. But the flag of rebellion and treason (in my republican opinion) should have never been allowed on state or public grounds.

What I find interesting (and rather sad) about this whole episode now is that many of the lower social and economic class people, who are still clinging to the [NOBABE]rebel[/NOBABE] flag, would also claim to be red, white & blue to the core. That strikes me as odd because I've never seen an American flag flying outside any of the trailer parks where I now notice recent unfurlings of the stars & bars. It's most important to people who have little or nothing. All they have is this imagery of the past, when their great, great grand-pappy was a (make believe) cavalry general, fighting right beside Robert E. Lee. I've always thought that's probably why the South lost the war: going by the stories told by Sons of Confederate Veterans members I've met at gun shows, hell, there were no privates or enlisted men - they were ALL freakin' officers of at least captain rank. I guess imagery and fantasy is all they have left though. I have never seen a Confederate flag flying in front of a $500K+ house. I've never seen a Confederate flag sticker on a Mercedes or a Jaguar... or even a (new) Cadillac. So if it makes them happy, hell, leave the poor bastards alone. Taking that flag away from them would be like taking the last piece of moldy cheese away from a starving rat.

What should be more striking is, the confederate flag stands for treason, and I would bet none of those people realize that part of it's history, which is the reason I have an issue with it being flown in City/State/Federal buildings.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Equesa Ocha, I would counter that by saying King George III probably felt the same way about the Stars and Stripes.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Equesa Ocha, I would counter that by saying King George III probably felt the same way about the Stars and Stripes.

I'm sure he did, in fact worse..WE KICKED HIS ASS!!!!

But is it treason if it's against an oppressive, totalitarian regime. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots, and tyrants. I don't think of myself as a tyrant, do you? But lets face it, that tree could use a good shaking. Does that make us treasonous, or just patriotic? Sword has 2 edges.