Several dead after Hamburg church shooting -police

I'm sorry this happens anywhere. Best to the victims, the people of Hamburg, and to all Germans. RIP to the deceased. We grieve with you as well.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/several-dead-hamburg-church-shooting-231052225.html

Thu, March 9, 2023 at 3:10 PM PST


STORY: The Bild newspaper reported that seven people were dead and eight others injured in the shooting at a Jehovah's Witness church. There were no indications that a perpetrator was on the run, Bild quoted a police spokesperson as saying.
"Several people were seriously injured, some even fatally. We are on site with a large contingent of forces," said Hamburg police on Twitter.
Broadcaster NDR quoted a police spokesperson saying that one or several unknown perpetrators shot at people in a church at about 9 p.m. local time (2000 GMT).
"The dead people all have gunshot wounds," the spokesperson was quoted as saying.
Germany's DPA news agency, citing a reporter on the scene, said that local residents in the northern Alsterdorf district of Hamburg had received warnings on their mobile phones of a "life threatening situation" and that streets had been sealed off.
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
I wonder if it was an act of islamic terrorism? I'm not sure if france is the only country that took them in. Hopefully Sup will stop by with an update from his local news.
 
I wonder if it was an act of islamic terrorism? I'm not sure if france is the only country that took them in. Hopefully Sup will stop by with an update from his local news.
1) Germany is a long-time host country for a lot of Turkish migrants
2) Not official yet but it appears the suspect would be a former member of that very same Jehovah's Witness community
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
1) Germany is a long-time host country for a lot of Turkish migrants
2) Not official yet but it appears the suspect would be a former member of that very same Jehovah's Witness community
Thank you.
 
What are gun laws / gun culture like in Germany? You don't hear about it too often.
 

Gun Laws in Germany​


The German system of gun control is among the most stringent in Europe.
It restricts the acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon. It bans fully automatic weapons and severely restricts the acquisition of other types of weapons. Compulsory liability insurance is required for anyone who is licensed to carry firearms.

In recent years, German gun-control law underwent several reforms that made it even more stringent. A new Weapons Act became effective in 2003 after a school shooting in the city of Erfurt in which a student killed sixteen persons. The new Act restricted the use of large caliber weapons by young people and strengthened requirements for the safe storage of firearms.

Another reform was enacted in 2009 in response to the massacre at Winnenden, in which an eighteen-year-old killed fifteen people in the course of a school shooting. This latest reform led to the creation of a federal gun register and to intense governmental monitoring of gun owners’ compliance with requirements for the safe storage of firearms. Pursuant to the reformed legislation, the authorities may at any time request access to the premises of any registered gun owner to monitor whether proper safe-storage procedures are being observed.

Germany has one of the highest rates of gun ownership worldwide, yet also one of the lowest rates of gun-related deaths.

To get a gun, Germans must first obtain a firearms ownership license (Waffenbesitzkarte) – and you may need a different one for each weapon you buy – or a license to carry (Waffenschein).
Applicants for a license must be at least 18 years old and undergo what’s called a reliability check
, which includes checking for criminal records, whether the person is an alcohol or drug addict, whether they have mental illness or any other attributes that might make them questionable to authorities.
They also have to pass a “specialized knowledge test” on guns and people younger than 25 applying for their first license must go through a psychiatric evaluation.
One must also prove a specific and approved need for the weapon, which is mainly limited to use by hunters, competitive marksmen, collectors and security workers – not for self-defence.

Once you have a license, you’re also limited in the number of and kinds of guns you may own, depending on what kind of license you have: Fully automatic weapons are banned for all, while semiautomatic firearms are banned for anything other than hunting or competitive shooting.

Under the reforms passed in the wake of a 2009 mass shooting, gun owners are also subject to continued monitoring by the government with officials able to ask gun owners at any time to enter their private property and check that they are properly storing their weapons.

But even given Germany’s strict gun policies, the country was still home to the fourth-highest number of legal guns per capita in 2013, falling behind just the United States, Switzerland and Finland.
About 2 million people own more than 5.5 million legal guns in Germany for a population of more than 80 million.
On top of that, police unions have estimated that there are up to 20 million more illegally-owned guns in Germany – this would mean roughly 30 guns for every group of 100 people.

But even given the relatively high amount of guns in the country, Germany has one of the lowest rates of gun-related deaths each year, according to international GunPolicy.org research by the University of Sydney.

Over the past 20 years, “crimes against life” – which include murder as well as negligent manslaughter – that involve guns have dropped from 783 in 1995 to 130 in 2015, according to the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA). Of those crimes in 2015, just 57 were intentional murders.

Several mass shootings within the past two decades have had a great impact on gun control policy. Since those mass shootings, there has also been drop-off in gun violence. In 2009 when Winnenden happened, there were 179 crimes against life that involved guns being fired, compared to the 130 such crimes in 2015.


There are two kinds of firearms carry permits in Germany:

1. Firearms carry permits (Waffenschein)
entitle licensees to publicly carry legally owned weapons, whether concealed or not. A mandatory legal and safety class and shooting proficiency tests are required to obtain such a permit. Carry permits are usually only issued to persons with a particular need for carrying a firearm. This includes some private security personnel and persons living under a raised threat level like celebrities and politicians. They are valid up to three years and can be extended. Carrying at public events is prohibited. Licensed hunters do not need a permit to carry loaded weapons while hunting, and unloaded weapons while directly traveling to and from such an activity.

2. A small firearms carry permit (Kleiner Waffenschein) was introduced in 2002. It can be obtained without having to demonstrate expert knowledge, necessity or a mandatory insurance. The only requirements are that the applicant be of legal age, trustworthy and personally adequate. It entitles the licensee to publicly carry gas pistols (both of the blank and irritant kind) and flare guns. These types of firearms are freely available to adults; only the actual carrying on public property requires the permit. Similar to the full permit, carrying at public events is prohibited.

Firearms that are prohibited in Germany may not be owned by anyone except with a special license from the Federal Criminal Police Office, which is only given to manufacturers, exporters, and, on rare occasions, collectors. The most important ones are:
  • Firearms defined as “war weapons” by the law (tanks, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns)
  • Fully automatic firearms
  • Pump-action shotguns, if
    • the stock has been replaced by a pistol grip or
    • the overall length is less than 95 cm, or
    • the barrel length is less than 45 cm.
  • Firearms designed to look like an everyday object in order to conceal their nature
  • Handguns made after January 1, 1970 that fire ammunition with a caliber of less than 6.3mm, except those for rimfire ammunition.
https://germanculture.com.ua/daily/gun-laws-in-germany/


Just like Switerland's, German gun laws demonstrate that gun-control and gun ownership are not opposites.



Also, and this is just assumption, my guess is that those 20 millions illegals guns aren't mostly criminal-owned (otherwise I think gun violence would be higher). My guess is that people who already have a licence and a gun don't want to go through all the process to get another one.
 
Last edited:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ooting-hamburg-focus-online-media-2023-03-09/

  • Police were warned about gunman but let him keep weapon
  • Gunman used legally-owned weapon, had stash of ammunition Shooter was former Jehovah's Witness, motive unknown: officials
  • Germany has suffered several mass shootings in recent years

also
The Hamburg shooter was known to police, who had visited his apartment prior to the attack in response to an anonymous tip raising concerns about his state of mind. But they did not have enough grounds to take away his weapon, a legally-held semi-automatic pistol made by German company Heckler & Koch, officials said.

Germany has suffered a number of mass shootings in recent years as well as a plot by a heavily armed group that aimed to overthrow the government. Following the previous shootings, Germany introduced stricter gun ownership rules and the government has announced plans to tighten controls further.

This is supposed to include mandatory phycological checks. As in this case, it would be interesting to see if the gun violence was caused by legally owned guns, in which case the tighter laws could make a difference.
 
The psychological evaluation is part of the process to get a licence but I haven't read anything about that licence being suspended in case of later diagnosed psychological issues. And we all know a lot of people with psychological issues aren't diagnosed.

Tight guns laws diminish the possibilities of such massacres to happen, diminished the probabilities that a person who shouldn't have a gun has one but it doesn't suppress it all, there's still room for such disasters to happen.
There are limits to what the government can do in terms of gun control and the protection of the people but just because the government can't entirely solve the problem, doesn't mean they should do nothing, doesn't mean they shouldn't do everything they can to come as close as they can to solving it entirely
 
The psychological evaluation is part of the process to get a licence but I haven't read anything about that licence being suspended in case of later diagnosed psychological issues.
You would hope that would be common sense.
 

Supafly

Retired Mod
Bronze Member

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
Be glad this numbskull didn't know what household chemicals to mix. He could have made an IED and done worse then any gun of any kind would have.

The problem with mental evaluations are, the ones that are really fucked up, know how to pass them. They know what to say, and what not to say. That's why they don't work.
 
The weapon used was a legally posessed one, as Philipp F. just recently got his legal papers to posess his half-automatic gun.

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamb...nweisgeber-warnte-vor-Taeter,amoklauf142.html

(Article is german)

If this wasn't Hamburg in Germanny, he would have gone in with some AR 15 and killed at least 50 or 100, that is pretty clear. Gun restrictions limit the crime possible

Thanks for replying, 'Fly. Sorry to you and your countrymen. It's a horrible tragedy no matter how you describe it. I hope the survivors get any treatment and counseling along with other help they may need.
 
If this wasn't Hamburg in Germanny, he would have gone in with some AR 15 and killed at least 50 or 100, that is pretty clear. Gun restrictions limit the crime possible
The same can be said for Japan. It's super-stringent requirements to get (& maintain) a gun/license, and only then, it's for hunting guns - i.e. shotguns and (after you've had your shotgun foir 10 years) rifles. You can't legally own a handgun or assault rifle, and accordingly, those guns aren't used in crimes.
 

Supafly

Retired Mod
Bronze Member
Thanks for replying, 'Fly. Sorry to you and your countrymen. It's a horrible tragedy no matter how you describe it. I hope the survivors get any treatment and counseling along with other help they may need.
We have to look at it from a few steps back. In order to make EVERY shooting impossible, wewould need to push legislation and have a policeman or -woman in every room.

So we have to accept that we cannot prevent all the crimes, but we can do better.
 
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