First Amendment Rights: Constitutional Dilemma Before The Supreme Court

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
This legal case is currently before the US Supreme Court. Nutshell version....a baptist church (Westboro Baptist Church run by Rev. Fred Phelps) in Topeka, Kansas is staging loud and disruptive protests at the funerals of American servicemen killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan under the premise that America is cursed and asserting that it is a good thing that soldiers are being killed because we (the USA in general I suppose by their reckoning) tolerate homosexuality and their deaths are proof that God is wreaking vengeance on us as a result. They recently staged a protest heckling the funeral service for Lance Corporal Mathew Snyder who had been killed in action in Afghanistan. The family of Corporal Snyder sued the church and won but the decision was overturned on appeal. The case is now before the Supreme Court.

Westboro Baptist Church Comes to the Supreme Court
Are Military Funeral Protesters Protected by First Amendment?

By ARIANE DE VOGUE
October 6, 2010

The attorney representing members of a Topeka, Kan. church argued before the U.S. Supreme Court today that carrying offensive signs and demonstrating outside of military funerals is protected speech under the First Amendment.

Margie J. Phelps, the lead counsel for the Westboro Baptist Church and the daughter of the church's pastor, Fred Phelps, told the justices that her group pickets funerals with "great circumspection and awareness of boundaries" when it carries signs with offensive messages such as "God Hates you" and "God Hates Fags." She said the group files permits with police before every protest and stays in restricted areas, often hundreds of yards from the proceedings.

The case, one of the most controversial on the court docket, was brought by Albert Snyder, who sued the church, after members picketed the funeral of his son, Lance Corporal Matthew Snyder, who died in Iraq. Later, members posted an epic poem on the church Web site entitled, "The Burden of Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder." It was addressed to his parents and said in part, "They taught him to support the largest pedophile machine in the history of the entire world, the Roman Catholic monstrosity."

Snyder won a judgment of $5 million, which was later thrown out by a federal appeals court which ruled the protest signs weren't aimed at Snyder specifically, and said the statements are protected by the Constitution because they contained "imaginative and hyperbolic rhetoric" meant to spark debate.

On Wednesday, lawyers for Snyder argued that the justices should reinstate the monetary award. "We are talking about a funeral", Sean E. Summers argued, " If context was ever going to matter, it has to matter for a funeral."

The justices asked whether the signs referred to Snyder directly, and whether or not the funeral members, who were unable to actually witness the demonstrations because the demonstators were kept 1000 feet away, were even able to experience the protest.

Justice Antonin Scalia said at one point, "simply to say you can have a protest within a certain distance is not to say you can have a protest within a certain distance that defames the corpse."

Justice Samuel Alito posed a hypothetical regarding a mother who has raised a son who was killed in war, and while she's waiting to take a bus, she is confronted by a protester.

"And while she's at the bus stop, someone approaches and speaks to her in the most vile terms about her son. Is that protected by the First Amendment?" Alito asked.

Attorney Phelps dodged the question but then was pushed by Chief Justice John Roberts.

"What is your answer to Justice Alito's question? Do you think the First Amendment would bar that cause of action or not?" Roberts ask.

Phelps replied, "There would have to be a very narrow circumstance where it didn't, Mr. Chief Justice. That's my answer."

Justice Elena Kagan, asked Phelps, "Suppose your group or another group picks a wounded soldier and follows him around, demonstrates at his home, demonstrates at his workplace, demonstrates at his church. Does that person not have a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress?"

Phelps replied that non-speech activity could indeed give rise to a potential claim, but said that her group received permits and stayed within the permitted boundaries when they protested.

At one point Justice Stephen Breyer, searching to draw a line regarding posting items on the Internet like the group's epic poem said, "I don't know what the rules ought to be. "

Jeffrey Rosen, a law professor at the George Washington University Law School said, "This case might not have huge constitutional dimensions, but it does raise this very important question, namely: how much protection do relatively private figures have against hurtful, outrageous, insulting, emotionally-aggravating speech?"

After the arguments, Albert Snyder appeared outside the court and, with emotion, read a statement, calling the day his son died, the "worst day of his life." His grief was compounded, he said, by being targeted by the church's demonstrations. "It is one thing no family should ever have to go through."

Margie Phelps spoke outside the court as well, and said, "There is no line that could be drawn here without shutting down speech." She told reporters, "You should all be thanking us for that heavy lifting we did in there."

At one point she broke into song with members of her congregation who stood behind her.

The case has attracted a flurry of friend-of-the-court briefs on both sides. Lawyers representing 40 states which have passed laws regulating protests at funerals, have weighed in on Snyder's behalf.

"The States should be accorded their traditionally recognized police powers to adopt and enforce reasonable time, place, and manner regulations on activities that may disrupt funerals, and to define civil tort liability for conduct that intentionally inflicts emotional distress and invades sacred privacy interests," said the brief, written by the Attorney General Steve Six of Kansas, who was joined by the other states.

The American Civil Liberties Union, however, has weighed in on behalf of the free speech concerns of the Phelps and their church. In court papers, lawyers for the ACLU wrote, the "First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion are designed to protect the right of speakers to voice their views on matters of public concern and to express their religious convictions."

I would assert that, no matter how disgusting and vile the actions of this church are, their right to assemble and protest are perfectly in accordance with the tenets of the first amendment to the US Constitution. I have tremendous empathy for Corporal Snyder's family and I disagree 100% with the beliefs of this lunatic church and its adherents. However, strictly from a legal standpoint, they can express themselves in any manner they wish and their rights to do so are protected by law in my opinion.

Opinions? Do you think a law protecting the privacy of the grieving family should be enacted by Congress to prevent this type of thing in the future?

Link is here:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supr...ary-funerals-members/story?id=11812444&page=2
 
Shouldn't be a dilemma. As long as they're peaceable, properly permitted and not trespassing there are no grounds to impede their right to assemble IMO.

But if they become disruptive local authorities ought to be able to ask them to voluntarily leave under threat of arrest.
 
I saw this story about these people a while back, really interesting stuff. There's also a group of bikers that follow these people around and rev their engines to drown out the sounds of the protesting.

Bikers protest Westboro Baptist demonstrators at Arlington burial

By Michael E. Ruane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, October 4, 2010; 8:06 PM

A group of motorcyclists staged a counter-demonstration Monday at the Arlington National Cemetery burial of a local Navy SEAL, parking motorcycles and revving engines to oppose a protest by members of the fundamentalist Westboro Baptist Church of Kansas...

...A group of about 20 motorcyclists, accompanying the funeral cortege of Navy Lieutenant Brendan Looney, park in front of three protestors from the Westboro Baptist Church and rev their engines to ear-splitting levels to block out the singing. They also partly block the mourners' view of the sign waving protestors...

Full story w/ video here
 

24788

☼LEGIT☼
You know millions of tax dollars go to the westboro baptist church from the us tax payers?
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
I would assert that, no matter how disgusting and vile the actions of this church are, their right to assemble and protest are perfectly in accordance with the tenets of the first amendment to the US Constitution. I have tremendous empathy for Corporal Snyder's family and I disagree 100% with the beliefs of this lunatic church and its adherents. However, strictly from a legal standpoint, they can express themselves in any manner they wish and their rights to do so are protected by law in my opinion.

Do they really have the RIGHT to blatantly interfere with a funeral though? I mean, it's one thing to protest - it's a completely different thing to protest at a funeral...especially when its a funeral of someone you don't even fucking know.

Now, I know that people can argue the whole First Amendment angle here and, to some degree, they would have a valid point. But, you could also argue the complete opposite and have a point that is just as valid.

The Constitution states that people have the freedom of speech, which is guaranteed by the First Amendment. What people are doing is twisting the words of that right and interpreting it in such a way that it can loosely include protesting at funerals as part of "freedom of speech".

But, it doesn't say that people have the right to be a cock and disrespect a family's funeral service for a loved one. It's all based on loose interpretation and opinionated categorization of what is and what isn't classified as "freedom of speech". So, both sides to this argument are going to have a valid point.

My personal opinion though? If you are protesting at a funeral, you are willingly and knowingly looking for trouble. And, if we're going to continue with the theme of loose interpretations and opinionated definitions, then I'm going to say that if someone is looking for trouble, then they are instigating a problem. And, if they are instigating a problem, then they are causing a scene. And, if they are causing a scene, then they are disturbing the peace (in this case, the peace of a funeral). And, if they are disturbing the peace, then they are breaking the law. And, people who break the law deserve to be put into jail.

Add it all together and my opinion is - if you protest at a funeral, you should be put into jail. Whether the cause is the violation of the law or just ignorant disrespect and stupidity, you deserve to go to jail.
 
Sounds like all the property owners for the funeral location and the burial location just need to assert their right to not allow people on their property. Problem solved...somewhat...
 
Do they really have the RIGHT to blatantly interfere with a funeral though? I mean, it's one thing to protest - it's a completely different thing to protest at a funeral...especially when its a funeral of someone you don't even fucking know.

Now, I know that people can argue the whole First Amendment angle here and, to some degree, they would have a valid point. But, you could also argue the complete opposite and have a point that is just as valid.

The Constitution states that people have the freedom of speech, which is guaranteed by the First Amendment. What people are doing is twisting the words of that right and interpreting it in such a way that it can loosely include protesting at funerals as part of "freedom of speech".

But, it doesn't say that people have the right to be a cock and disrespect a family's funeral service for a loved one. It's all based on loose interpretation and opinionated categorization of what is and what isn't classified as "freedom of speech". So, both sides to this argument are going to have a valid point.

My personal opinion though? If you are protesting at a funeral, you are willingly and knowingly looking for trouble. And, if we're going to continue with the theme of loose interpretations and opinionated definitions, then I'm going to say that if someone is looking for trouble, then they are instigating a problem. And, if they are instigating a problem, then they are causing a scene. And, if they are causing a scene, then they are disturbing the peace (in this case, the peace of a funeral). And, if they are disturbing the peace, then they are breaking the law. And, people who break the law deserve to be put into jail.

Add it all together and my opinion is - if you protest at a funeral, you should be put into jail. Whether the cause is the violation of the law or just ignorant disrespect and stupidity, you deserve to go to jail.

As long as they are permitted, peaceable, not trespassing they have the constitutional right to stand with whatever signs they want anywhere...no different from the folks in Jags sig.:2 cents:
 
...Add it all together and my opinion is - if you protest at a funeral, you should be put into jail. Whether the cause is the violation of the law or just ignorant disrespect and stupidity, you deserve to go to jail.

I agree with you completely but, legally, I think it may end up being more of a civil matter, rather than a criminal one.

Probably along these lines:
Justice Elena Kagan, asked Phelps, "Suppose your group or another group picks a wounded soldier and follows him around, demonstrates at his home, demonstrates at his workplace, demonstrates at his church. Does that person not have a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress?"


Intentional infliction of emotional distress (IIED) is a tort claim of recent origin for intentional conduct that results in extreme emotional distress. Some courts and commentators have substituted mental for emotional, but the tort is the same.

Elements of IIED:
-Defendant acted intentionally or recklessly; and
-Defendant’s conduct was extreme and outrageous; and
-Defendant’s act is the cause of the distress; and
-Plaintiff suffers severe emotional distress as a result of defendant’s conduct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Protesting at a funeral?
Not good because it shows you're insensitive and overly blunt and therefore don't deserve consideration.
Not good because his soldier mates may well kick the shit out of you.
Not good because it's just morally wrong.

The war is wrong but you still need to support your soldiers. Even if you don't like them your tax dollars have paid for them and it's in your best interests to care for them.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
As long as they are permitted, peaceable, not trespassing they have the constitutional right to stand with whatever signs they want anywhere...no different from the folks in Jags sig.:2 cents:

Yes, they have that right as long as they're not trespassing and as long as they are acting in a peaceful manner, but how is blatantly interrupting and disrespecting somebody's funeral a peaceful action?

There are just so many interpretations and opinions that get thrown around when it comes to our "rights" that nobody will ever be right and nobody will ever be wrong. It's nothing but a horribly unsatisfying gray area...and it's probably always going to be that way.

:2 cents:
 
Yes, they have that right as long as they're not trespassing and as long as they are acting in a peaceful manner, but how is blatantly interrupting and disrespecting somebody's funeral a peaceful action?

There are just so many interpretations and opinions that get thrown around when it comes to our "rights" that nobody will ever be right and nobody will ever be wrong. It's nothing but a horribly unsatisfying gray area...and it's probably always going to be that way.

:2 cents:

The Justices offer some debatable hypothetic situations but in this particular case where the protesters were simply holding signs and 1000 feet away after having obtained permission...they were within their constitutional rights. Disrespect and despicable acts can still be done peaceably.:2 cents:
 
If you protest at a funeral You Might as well just hold a sign that says "I'm an inconsiderate dumb fuck". It might save some people the couple of seconds to figure it out on their own. That being said it is their right to do so. At least they are open and honest about showing everyone that they're idiots.
 
There is no excuse for this action. These people will most likely be shut down within the year. What people should do is go up to their church while in service and just start making a bunch of ruckus in form of protest and remind them it is freedom of speech. Play the most loudest pro-American music, have signs saying protest this church, and see how they like it. If they say anything remind them:

Now imagine if you were trying to pay respects to a dead family, loved, one.

These folks no nothing about the bible and need to go away.
 

xfire

New Twitter/X @cxffreeman
Your right to punch me in the face ends at the tip of my nose. Same principle with these Westboro Assholes. They're all hypocrites, anyway, like all other religiously insane motherfuckers.
 
There is no excuse for this action. These people will most likely be shut down within the year. What people should do is go up to their church while in service and just start making a bunch of ruckus in form of protest and remind them it is freedom of speech. Play the most loudest pro-American music, have signs saying protest this church, and see how they like it. If they say anything remind them:

Now imagine if you were trying to pay respects to a dead family, loved, one.

These folks no nothing about the bible and need to go away.

What would most likely happen is you would be removed for trespassing among other things.

You don't have a right to go on or in someone else's private property to protest and you don't have a right to disturb the peace.:2 cents:

If you wanted to get permitted to stand outside somewhere on public property and peaceably protest then that is within your constitutional rights.
 
I really really really want people to stage a protest outside these wackos church where they hold up signs saying "JESUS SUCKS COCK," "MARY TOOK IT IN THE ASS," and "GOD IS A FAG" and we'll see if they hold to the same freedom of speech argument.

:cool:
 
Did I say anything about going inside? No. It'd be the typical outside the building protest. Jeez.

Typical you. Quoting just to quote.
 
There is something I really like to say. "Just because you can do something does not mean you should."

Even if they do have the right to protest. They should not. It is just tasteless. No matter what side of the "Homosexuality is wrong" debate there is such a thing as common decency. You are grown people, act like an adult. You can protest every once in a while, but keep it tasteful. Don't protest at a funeral, there are grieving families trying to come to terms with their friend and family member's death.

So to everyone at the Westboro Baptist Church. Have fun in hell you jackasses.
 
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