Ack, another Kerry ...

[Member2019]

Well, Obama's toting the "let our allies pay more for Afghanistan and Iraq" line just like Kerry did. While I can partially understand that stance, based on the NATO agreement in place for Afghanistan, it absolutely makes no sense for Iraq. Our allies are not going to spend their money paying for a war they did not agree to or sign up for in any alliance

I think it's yet another appeal to the border voters, at the expense of the reality of the situation. I'm glad to see a few foreign media outlets cover this statement, and realize Obama is not offering anything but "passing the buck" on to them. Although one thing Obama did one worse than Kerry was promote this as a way to "spend more on social services." I was just sitting there with my jaw on the floor.

"But Obama, I thought you were going to use that reduction in cost to address our deficit like you said you would?"

Another reason I can't bring myself to vote for Obama any more than I can't for McCain. I cannot believe people complain that I refuse to vote for the "lesser of two evils." I cannot believe people say I'm the problem for not doing so. Sigh.

 

[Legzman]

whats a border voter? Someone who can't decide between the 2 candidates? I've already made up my mind and I for one will not be picking either of them. I simply won't vote!

 

[Jagger69]

I can't find your source for that quote, Prof. The closest thing I could locate was this transcription from a speech he made on the subject of Afghanistan:

"I will send at least two additional combat brigades to Afghanistan, and use this commitment to seek greater contributions – with fewer restrictions – from NATO allies."

and this....

"We will forge a new coalition to support Iraq’s future – one that includes all of Iraq’s neighbors, and also the United Nations, the World Bank, and the European Union – because we all have a stake in stability."

Full text is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/15/us/politics/15text-obama.html?pagewanted=all

I don't see these statements as evidence that he expects our allies to pay for the existing war effort in Iraq. It would be extremely foolish on their behalf, however, not to want to participate in the stabilization and perpetuation of a strong and constitutional government for such a key nation located square in the midst of such a tumultuous and important region of the globe. And, surely, since the Al-Qaeda threat that is growing by the day on the Afghan and Pakistani frontier represents a clear and present danger to all of our allies in addition to the interests and safety of the USA, they should most certainly be predisposed to helping out with that effort as well. And hey, who knows, if we're not acting like a bunch of jingoistic assholes about it, this time we might be able to actually forge a true coalition.

Anyway, if you have a source for the quote, please post it. Thanks.

Lastly, anyone who chooses not to vote certainly has that prerogative. Just remember, your vote counts either way.....either by the affect of its presence or its absence.

 

[PlasmaTwa2]

Ever notice you don't hear anything about the Americans in Afghanistan anymore? Perosnally, I'm all for the allies paying for Iraq, since Canadians aren't in it...

 

[tubuler]

"Ack, another Kerry yada yada yada. Obama sucks blah blah blah. McCains no better blah blah blah."

Try looking past the person and vote for the party that best fits your preferences. Or just bitch and moan about a process that you admittedly don't participate in. Your choice.

 

[titsrock]

Your vote won't be missed this time, Prof. And it will be more than made up for by 4 Obama voters.

If you don't vote than you have to promise not to comment on Democratic/Republican political issues for the next 4 years..agreed?

 

[Torre82]

Your vote won't be missed this time, Prof. And it will be more than made up for by 4 Obama voters.

If you don't vote than you have to promise not to comment on Democratic/Republican political issues for the next 4 years..agreed?

::ready to push any buttons for the black guy::

Where they at?! VOTE VOTE VOTE!

Yes, I'm serious. Even if he wasnt an awesome candidate.. I'd do it to **** off the old-south with a black president. lol

 

[Legzman]

Your vote won't be missed this time, Prof. And it will be more than made up for by 4 Obama voters.

If you don't vote than you have to promise not to comment on Democratic/Republican political issues for the next 4 years..agreed?

I bitch about all that **** on the board already. I don't know much about it, just enough to bitch about and I don't vote! I really don't see the point

 

[gunslingingbird]

Well, let's see, I didn't vote for Kerry, neither did I vote for the preceding Democratic candidate, I wonder how I'll vote for the next Democratic candidate?

 

[Member2019]

Absolutely sad ...

Try looking past the person and vote for the party that best fits your preferences.

So we elect parties, not people? How is that a Democracy? Or even a Democratic-Republic?

Or just bitch and moan about a process that you admittedly don't participate in. Your choice.

So what you're saying is that I don't participate if I don't vote Democrat or Republican? Do you really believe such?

Sad.

Your vote won't be missed this time, Prof. And it will be more than made up for by 4 Obama voters.

My vote is never missed, I always make it.
I show up at the polls and either decide to vote or not vote on each office.

If you don't vote than you have to promise not to comment on Democratic/Republican political issues for the next 4 years..agreed?

Nope. I have full rights to vote about the lack of a good candidate in any ballot.
I have a civic duty to complain about violations of the Constitution and my individual rights and property protected by it.

I will actually take the time write in a candidate that I believe is worth, or a joke in disgust.
To think people who don't vote Democrat or Republican have no right to complain brings up that classic Dilbert strip.

Dilbert: ...and people who don't bother to vote have no right to complain.
Dogbert: Why not?
Dilbert: Why not? It's obvious. No vote means no right to complain. You can't get much more logical than that. Besides, that's how I was raised.
Dogbert: You were raised by bumper stickers?

I vote, I just refuse to vote party lines -- sorry, it's just feeding the problem.
A problem that George Washington and John Adams tried to warn us about.

 

[Member2019]

I can't find your source for that quote, Prof. The closest thing I could locate was this transcription from a speech he made on the subject of Afghanistan

It was clearly his voice, from two different interviews.
It was not just Afghanistan, which I can understand, because of the NATO agreements and commitment.

It was clearly on Iraq as well, and Obama basically took it straight for Kerry's mouth.
I honestly could not believe he pulled that, you'd think he'd know better, especially from an European viewpoint.

 

[neighborboy]

Re: Absolutely sad ...

So we elect parties, not people? How is that a Democracy? Or even a Democratic-Republic?

Yes. Since parties govern and not individuals, you should make your vote based on your party preferences, not your preference for one individual candidate. Besides, many European countries hold their elections for parties, not individuals, and no one thinks they aren't democracies, or representative democracies.

 

[Jagger69]

It was clearly his voice, from two different interviews.
It was not just Afghanistan, which I can understand, because of the NATO agreements and commitment.

It was clearly on Iraq as well, and Obama basically took it straight for Kerry's mouth.
I honestly could not believe he pulled that, you'd think he'd know better, especially from an European viewpoint.

Sorry Prof but unless you can produce a source, I'm skeptical. I certainly remain open to the possibility that he may have said it but until or unless you can come up with a legitimate source for the quote, it remains subjective. I've searched fairly extensively and have yet to find one.

 

[Member2019]

Sorry Prof but unless you can produce a source, I'm skeptical. I certainly remain open to the possibility that he may have said it but until or unless you can come up with a legitimate source for the quote, it remains subjective. I've searched fairly extensively and have yet to find one.

Don't worry, he's saying it a lot now that the Democrat primary is over.
It's fine if you don't believe me, you'll hear him say it in one of his debates soon enough.

Kerry Part II, coming to a debate near you.

It's just funny, because he previously said we cannot rely more on our allies in Iraq.
Now he's selling it as "use that money we save" by relying on our allies more in Iraq.

He's been doing this as much as Kerry did before.
The sad thing is that McCain has done much of the same since 2000 as well.

Sorry, not voting for either of these two flippers.

 

[Jagger69]

^^^

It's not that I don't believe you. You offer no factual source to back up your claim so I am skeptical. If he said it, there should be at least one scrap of information on the "internets" somewhere about it. I can't find any. Evidently, neither can you or anyone else. I'll keep looking.

By the way, most of the disenfranchised voters I am running across are conservatives but then again that might be due to the fact that the majority of voters in the state of Texas are just slightly to the right of Genghis Khan anyway and John McCain is way too liberal for them.

 

[tubuler]

Re: Absolutely sad ...

Yes. Since parties govern and not individuals, you should make your vote based on your party preferences, not your preference for one individual candidate. Besides, many European countries hold their elections for parties, not individuals, and no one thinks they aren't democracies, or representative democracies.

^that pretty much covers my response to Prof Voluptuarys comment. Appreciate that neighborboy.

 

[Member2019]

So you guys believe in voting parties?

I honestly cannot believe that is the attitude that would prevail in the US.
If so, then Washington and Adams are turning over in their graves.

It's bad enough politicians push this.
But for the American people to expect everyone to do it as "what one should do," wow!

We are honestly lost then.

 

[tubuler]

Re: So you guys believe in voting parties?

I honestly cannot believe that is the attitude that would prevail in the US.
If so, then Washington and Adams are turning over in their graves.

It's bad enough politicians push this.
But for the American people to expect everyone to do it as "what one should do," wow!

We are honestly lost then.

You right Prof. Washington and Adams would look much more kindly on some one like you. Who chooses to pompously denigrate the system without actually participating in any way, shape or form (like a political armchair quarterback).

I respect your right to complain, as I don't subscribe to the "If you don't vote, you can't complain" philosophy, but that's as far as I go. Everyday people like you and I might be too insignificant to bring about big changes that need to be made, like the abolishment of the electoral college and the two party system, but that does not change the fact that we still have a choice to make. A choice between two candidates who represent different political ideologies and have different political agendas. We may not completely agree with either candidate, but no one can honestly say that they don't prefer one candidate over the other. It is impossible to be perfectly split down the middle.

We may not like the limited choices that we are presented with, but our distaste for those limitations does not exempt us from, what Washington and Adams would call, our "civic duty".

It may seem noble to refuse to "choose between the lesser of two evils", but when you do that, you may end up with the greater of two evils.

You have to have a preference. So why not make a choice?

 

[Member2019]

Re: So you guys believe in voting parties?

like the abolishment of the electoral college

Whoa! I never said it should be abolished.
I think it should be modified, especially to better represent the African American vote (among others).

But there is something to be said about preventing large, populous states from making smaller states irrelevant.
Or more relevant to today, preventing states with large cities from making the vote in the overwhelming majority of others states irrelevant.

Ironically, what used to favor the Democrats now favors the Republicans.
No longer are the majority of city voters about "big business" but "social services."

 

[tubuler]

Re: So you guys believe in voting parties?

Whoa! I never said it should be abolished.

I know you didn't. It's something I think should happen. I actually started a thread on it a while back. (my feelings on that issue can be found there)

That aside, I hope that's not the only part of my previous post that you will address. As it has little to do with the discussion we were having.